Re: Remote participation fees
Simon Pietro Romano <spromano@unina.it> Sun, 15 February 2015 20:24 UTC
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Subject: Re: Remote participation fees
From: Simon Pietro Romano <spromano@unina.it>
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Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 21:24:47 +0100
To: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>, Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com>
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Hello John, If we were serious (as we are) we'd keep on doing our best to improve remote participation support. Most of the functions you cite are, in my view, if not already there ay least VERY close to what can be defined a reliable service suite for remote participation. I encourage you to look back at past meetings and compare the remote experience you had from one meeting to the other in the last three years. Please don't tell me we didn't do giant steps towards a good service. And when I say 'we', I mean the IETF leadership, the secretariat, the NOC, some people like you who have provided invaluable feedback on end users experience...and the Meetecho team. Cheers, Simon Il 15 Febbraio 2015 14:31:09 CET, John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> ha scritto: > > >--On Saturday, February 14, 2015 21:11 -0500 Ted Lemon ><Ted.Lemon@nominum.com> wrote: > >> On Feb 14, 2015, at 5:51 PM, John Leslie <john@jlc.net> wrote: >>> Is there anybody besides the Meetecho folks whose task it >>> is to "make it work"? Is there anybody _including_ the >>> Meetecho folks who has the ability to arrange similar >>> priority at the mike to that of on-site participants? >> >> A tremendous amount of work goes on behind the scenes to make >> this work, not just the meetecho folks. I remember reporting >> a problem in a meeting and having Alexa show up five minutes >> later checking to see if it was fixed, and I know that other >> folks from AMS and from the NOC work hard on this. > >Ted, > >I agree about the efforts and have said that before. I think we >would be much worse off without those huge, and largely >successful, efforts to remedy or patch things when problems are >noticed. > >However, the example you note is part of my concern about >whether the IETF is serious about remote participation. As John >Leslie and I have noted, "something doesn't work in some 9AM >Monday WG session" seems so common as to be routine. Sometimes >those things get fixed quickly, sometimes those of us who are >remote are basically told that a fix cannot be made without >disrupting the meeting so things will be fixed and tested after >11:30. > >If we were serious, we'd have these things up and tested before >the sessions start. If we were serious, we'd promise >availability of remote participation (or at least remote >observation) of Sunday afternoon tutorial sessions and we would >test things in advance for them. Most of those sessions are as >valuable to those who are remote as to those who happen to be >present, and, especially for newcomers, some may be more >important for the remote people who cannot ask questions in the >halls. If we were serious, it wouldn't be left to remote >participants to report that a camera was giving a lovely view of >the carpet in the meeting room or that speakers were otherwise >off-camera, and, when the problem was detected, fixing it would >be a priority, not something deferred to avoid interrupting the >speaker (or we'd be using remote-controllable cameras). > >If we were serious, we would establish a system that works and >use it and stop trying to half-support three systems (Meetecho, >WebEx, and the streamed audio/Jabber combination in parallel). >Of that list, Meetecho has been quote close to what we need >although I've got scaling concerns; WebEx is notoriously >unreliable, especially for unmoderated sessions with many >participants and many locations; and, if only because of the >combination of audio lag, typing lag, and microphone access lag, >we should stop pretending the last combination is worth the >trouble (there are good reasons for recording and probably >streaming audio, but they aren't related to remote >_participation_) I don't believe that all of the items on the >list Randy provided three years ago and quoted in a recent note >are entirely necessary, but I'd certainly like to have them too. >If we were serious, we would have made some progress on that >list in three years. As far as I can tell, we haven't. > >And, coming back to the topic of this thread, if charging a >remote participation fee is a component of a serious commitment >by the IETF (rather than the dedication of a handful of >individuals), then let's charge a registration fee. If it is >better to set a schedule for quality and well-supported remote >participation services, imposing a fee only when things are up >and running, that is fine but let's see the schedule. By >contrast, if "there is no fee, remote participants get the best >service volunteers can deliver when they have time and without >disrupting meetings, and we have no incentive to announce a >schedule" is the IETF's policy in practice, then let's admit >that, acknowledge whatever it means for diversity of >participation, and move on. > > john
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- about remote attendance and hallway discussions Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
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- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Mary Barnes
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… John C Klensin
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ray Pelletier
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Mary Barnes
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Mary Barnes
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Mary Barnes
- Re: Remote participation fees John Leslie
- Re: Remote participation fees John Leslie
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… John C Klensin
- Re: Remote participation fees John Leslie
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Dave Cridland
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Remote participation fees John Leslie
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… John C Klensin
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Randy Bush
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- RE: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Randy Bush
- RE: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Scott Kitterman
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- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Dave Cridland
- RE: Remote participation fees Christer Holmberg
- Re: Remote participation fees John C Klensin
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Michael Richardson
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- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Dave Cridland
- RE: Remote participation fees Simon Pietro Romano
- Re: Remote participation fees Simon Pietro Romano
- Re: Remote participation fees John C Klensin
- Re: Remote participation fees Simon Pietro Romano
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Melinda Shore
- Re: Remote participation fees Stewart Bryant
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- RE: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… James Gannon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Carlos Vera Quintana
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Carlos Vera Quintana
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Murray S. Kucherawy
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- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom Murray S. Kucherawy
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- Re: Remote participation fees Tim Chown
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
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- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Dave Crocker
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benson Schliesser
- Re: Remote participation fees Nico Williams
- Re: Remote participation fees Nico Williams
- Re: Remote participation fees John C Klensin
- "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing the w… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Benson Schliesser
- Re: Remote participation fees Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Yoav Nir
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… t.p.
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work John C Klensin
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Alia Atlas
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel Halpern Direct
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Mary Barnes
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Dave Crocker
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benson Schliesser
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Nico Williams
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Benson Schliesser
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Andy Bierman
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benson Schliesser
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work John C Klensin
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Roy T. Fielding
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Nico Williams
- RE: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Christer Holmberg
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Alia Atlas
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… t.p.
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Mary Barnes
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Nico Williams
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Stephen Farrell
- Re: sweets to the sweet, was 'Paywall, ' IETF sel… John Levine
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… l.wood
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… John C Klensin
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Randy Bush
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… John C Klensin
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Donald Eastlake
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… joel jaeggli
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Dave Cridland
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Dave Cridland
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Andy Bierman
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.