Re: [rfc-i] Jim: Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? (was: Re: John/rsoc: Re: Page numbers in RFCs questions / preferences)
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Sat, 31 October 2020 15:54 UTC
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Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2020 11:53:47 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Larry Masinter <LMM@acm.org>, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
cc: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, Working Group Chairs <wgchairs@ietf.org>, RFC Interest <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>, rsoc@iab.org, IETF Discussion Mailing List <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rfc-i] Jim: Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? (was: Re: John/rsoc: Re: Page numbers in RFCs questions / preferences)
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References: <20201026181442.GA2438@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <CAMm+LwiVmE=qtSPCMD-3foPODL8bgETj3dQDKS-3BOM2021dEg@mail.gmail.c om> <CADaq8jdSeTDWy_0fCV25ykxKFMV1ZBtUMMNesoOuaXCzFVfpOA@mail.gmail.com> <D2D0455D-8D6C-4A19-ACAE-4DD972D83DC1@bluepopcorn.net> <20201028164053.GB12700@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <263C265C19B24BA97AF48934@PSB> <225062D7-C061-4543-8665-53A4F4831510@isc.org> <20201029005519.GT39170@kduck.mit.edu> <A05242FC-C38C-474F-A2AC-412329CA5C52@isc.org> <CAKq15ve-kAFZWH_f7=1XXC5PfxvO-sAzppB1fVTyqUufLftkVg@mail.gmail.com>
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Larry, Clever idea but -- (1) We already have rules against people making such references. The RFC Editor Function has been enforcing those rules for references within and between RFCs for decades. After this discussion, if paying more attention to that is even possible, I'm confident they will do it. (2) If people are determined to break that rule, it is not clear to me that some additional words will either prevent their doing it or convince them to include the format / rendering information in their references. (3) It is also not clear to me that assorted markup templates (not only our xml2rfc one but those of external journals and publishers have a good place to put that information, especially if we do not invent, and publicize, a standard way to reference RFCs that includes that information (which would be odd, given that we are trying to stamp it out (see(1) above and one or two of my earlier notes). (4) At least for shorter documents, if people are really determined to use page numbers but we leave them off of paginated documents, they will simply count and then use them (perhaps as "fifth page", rather than "page 5") just as many of us have been counting paragraphs within sections and referring to, e.g., "the third paragraph of Section 5" for years. (5) If we are going to do anything other than putting the page numbers into the plain text form (and leaving them in the PDF form) or trying to punish anyone who is ignorant or backward enough to want to use the plain text form for any purpose (presumably included tree-hatred), then, IMO, we should just put them in (along with the headers and footers) and move on. john --On Thursday, October 29, 2020 10:02 -0700 Larry Masinter <LMM@acm.org> wrote: > If you're concerned about people seeing different pagination > depending on format, you could change the page numbers at the > bottom of .txt pages to be > > Author Shortname > docname.txt[Page 2] > > and the numbers at the bottom of pages in PDF similarly to have > docname.pdf[Page 2] > > where docname is either rfcNNNN or draft-ietf-wgname-NN > > it's better if the page identifier at the bottom of the page > identifies the context anyway. > Put it outside the [Page NN] brackets for backward > compatibility :) >
- FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty pleas… Toerless Eckert
- Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty p… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty p… David Noveck
- Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty p… Jim Fenton
- Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty p… Andrew G. Malis
- Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty p… Jim Fenton
- Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty p… David Noveck
- Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty p… Robert Sparks
- Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (… Carsten Bormann
- Setting Reply-To Robert Sparks
- Re: Setting Reply-To Derek Atkins
- Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numb… Toerless Eckert
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … John C Klensin
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Mark Andrews
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Julian Reschke
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Keith Moore
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Julian Reschke
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Warren Kumari
- Re: [rfc-i] Jim: Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Mark Andrews
- Re: [rfc-i] Jim: Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Larry Masinter
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Keith Moore
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Julian Reschke
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Keith Moore
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Julian Reschke
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Donald Eastlake
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Christian Huitema
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Mark Andrews
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … John C Klensin
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Leonard Giuliano
- Re: [rfc-i] Jim: Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Toerless Eckert
- RE: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Black, David
- Re: [irsg] Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs wit… Jane Coffin
- you should not feel bad about I-D document format… Keith Moore
- Re: you should not feel bad about I-D document fo… Andrew G. Malis
- Re: [rfc-i] Jim: Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … John C Klensin
- Re: [rfc-i] Jim: Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Larry Masinter
- Re: Authoring tools survey (Was: Jim: Re: [rfc-i]… IETF Executive Director