Re: "We did not know" is not a good excuse

Harish Pillay <harish.pillay@gmail.com> Thu, 07 April 2016 05:58 UTC

Return-Path: <harish.pillay@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDD3612D544 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 22:58:30 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.7
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id djfGUY-IFQNt for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 22:58:29 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io0-x235.google.com (mail-io0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F39412D1EC for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 22:58:25 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io0-x235.google.com with SMTP id g185so82359074ioa.2 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 06 Apr 2016 22:58:25 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to; bh=s5jt/ySjh4WeVgYQ3m1YXdXT51PQ3qxLyXCsCbRXOJU=; b=dt1aDqiuilgdWrbthfE+LsDq4hQvhsF/xyB+gUIo/Ma+THeegiJqQa72s5XhB2OkRL 1RMYHLw99XfvNMcn2qk0+ebVKQYL4jgWDgqEt2GtLHdvCKGrSfKSoaj/mOJ3uwBro0S5 pqfrNgbq2wsr/MENSbRauaGEkBZwa0b3JY2PA/mkz/enftuCoLX3S0Rrb8VQrNuDq5d1 9ECAsPR+akvjaA+cpiDIDMkO1brYimnNumn4UdhkQCBmM1lJHaIG+F0A9tACy9LTpzsh DSiMSiYUQJzxjK3e0kbUkhJ1UXE/h6K2JpcDB7JFp0KSL5Ln08IveRSfJQffzh+409CT zF3g==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to; bh=s5jt/ySjh4WeVgYQ3m1YXdXT51PQ3qxLyXCsCbRXOJU=; b=ZHRybGWSCqjDboIAhN5SxBdTQUbBROlvOAp9dB5Vs3zdJf26Hgrc1fy0m4ZmO2DZ1t 61UC9sSLDbhOaYAwr7m0wPjnHJOq04KNUvXA0M0g2oYfjNmaHeSFfTGgu4iEOWlGHRlb OTIzz/hKvv5b+N7YWSAcMy/HC390gAIxIJY6791+zSSTFhoKmSluJd58iFapiy1SmpNM Kf6K9oNTNqpRnAI+ypkljNCOl32qgR4hn1NfFoTQlouPq1Ph2U4qrlZ+FgOn++3I7qE6 nBMzj1yk1xTPcd0Xucvuqv/pk86vp7odGTrgqzbUVpHMeMjwPswqxIdhdMpfC/iMNGkY wkmA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLe5c+nf4lP7XUwnL5LfTmcD1hPQO5DWX0CE9eWUJB24z/xm+U3XPhfXDygPLfKZ9cHDX1q4KogHFSLig==
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.107.56.196 with SMTP id f187mr1487959ioa.156.1460008704391; Wed, 06 Apr 2016 22:58:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.107.129.214 with HTTP; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 22:58:24 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <5705F127.30209@gmail.com>
References: <09ff01d1905c$f15d4e70$d417eb50$@olddog.co.uk> <5705C39E.30807@dcrocker.net> <5705C837.5060000@gmail.com> <CAHkmkwuOxOnmJa7KOPdW0Fpqdoq2c7oKWmt9B+zvSy6WcCY5QA@mail.gmail.com> <5705D883.2090309@gmail.com> <CAHkmkwt9geOiwXnqi=LxPWUVp0_oR7GDgzt6KZ3ZM46U__c3Yw@mail.gmail.com> <5705F127.30209@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 13:58:24 +0800
Message-ID: <CAHkmkwvQFVMwMdh9BzLxepNyWA6+BuzmgSP4xH6Uejm6W=CiHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: "We did not know" is not a good excuse
From: Harish Pillay <harish.pillay@gmail.com>
To: ietf@ietf.org
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/qYjFY0ULxaC-QPzDqOBwWWpAukk>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 05:58:31 -0000

>> No different from the many other anti-gay laws on books in many
>> countries including the US.
>
> Actually, it is.  Our Supreme Court has been striking down
> anti-gay legislation, not upholding it.  Right now it is the
> law in Singapore that sexual contact between consenting adult
> men is a criminal act.  The best way to clarify that Singapore
> doesn't really mean it is to get rid of the law, along with
> your other miscellaneous anti-gay laws.

There has not been, to the best of my knowledge, *anyone* who
has been charged in court under that rule (which I think is the
only rule there is) unless it was based on a report made by
one of the parties involved and it is usually under that offense
of rape or by parents (of minors involved). No one is going around
looking into bedrooms to see what is happening.

Again, no one who has participated in the pinkdot.sg event has,
to the best of my knowledge, been charged or penalised for
their orientation.

> I live in Alaska, so I'm certainly sympathetic to the problem
> of living in a place you love that does some things that are
> very wrong and that are difficult to explain to people not from
> there, and the embarrassment that sometimes goes with that.
> But my own feeling is that the best way to deal with those
> situations is to own them and to work for change.  I respect your
> feelings about your country but I will not be attending a
> meeting in Singapore unless the laws change.

It is a pity that you won't attend. I respect your stand and
principle. I feel that you are unfortunately making this more
of an issue than it really is in Singapore. Yes, we have prudes
(exclusively the religious sort[0]) who make it their problem
what consenting adults do based on their interpretation of
some fairy tale :-).

Singapore is far from perfect and we have our peculiarities. But
so does every society and country.

I would strongly encourage you to come to Singapore. I would
be more than happy to welcome you here. We need keep the
channels open and not closed. Then, and only then, will things
change for the better.

Harish
[0] http://news.asiaone.com/news/singapore/gay-lifestyle-against-bible-says-council-churches