[tsvwg] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc5405bis-13.txt> (UDP Usage Guidelines) to Best Current Practice
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Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2016 05:20:38 -0700
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Subject: [tsvwg] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc5405bis-13.txt> (UDP Usage Guidelines) to Best Current Practice
From: Ca By <cb.list6@gmail.com>
To: Jim Roskind <JimRoskind@gmail.com>
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Cc: tsvwg WG <tsvwg@ietf.org>, Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>, "draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc5405bis@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc5405bis@ietf.org>, "tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org" <tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org>, spud <spud@ietf.org>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>
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On Sunday, June 5, 2016, Jim Roskind <JimRoskind@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','JimRoskind@gmail.com');>> wrote: > > > On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 5:25 PM, Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote: > >> On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 3:11 AM, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch> wrote: >> > Greetings, all, >> > >> > Apologies for the late last call comment; I have only one, relatively >> minor. I hope it's still useful. >> > >> > I understand that Section 3 was written to encourage application >> developers not to roll their own transports ("trust us when we say this is >> hard, this document is a list of reasons why") but as written it would seem >> to discourage transport innovation atop UDP (e.g. QUIC, the RTCWEB data >> channel, anything-over-PLUS), which I very much hope was not the intent. >> The problematic recommendation is in the second paragraph: >> > >> > These mechanisms are difficult to implement correctly. For most >> > applications, the use of one of the existing IETF transport protocols >> > is the simplest method of acquiring the required mechanisms. Doing >> > so also avoids issues that protocols using a new IP protocol number >> > face when being deployed over the Internet, where middleboxes that >> > only support TCP and UDP are not rare. Consequently, the RECOMMENDED >> > alternative to the UDP usage described in the remainder of this >> > section is the use of an IETF transport protocol such as TCP >> > [RFC0793], Stream Control Transmission Protocol (SCTP) [RFC4960], and >> > SCTP Partial Reliability Extension (SCTP-PR) [RFC3758], or Datagram >> > Congestion Control Protocol (DCCP) [RFC4340] with its different >> > congestion control types [RFC4341][RFC4342][RFC5622]. >> > >> > First, this paragraph ignores potential deployment issues with any of >> these other than TCP, which risks seeming out of touch, but this is a minor >> point and probably not worth a late edit. Second, I'm concerned this >> recommendation could be taken as broader than intended, against the >> definition of any new transport protocol encapsulated within UDP that >> performs substantially the same function as the listed protocols. >> > >> I would agree, this paragraph also seems a little self >> contradictory.There is an acknowledgment that "middleboxes that only >> support TCP and UDP are not rare", but then the next sentence >> recommends the use of several other protocols besides UDP and TCP. If >> I put these two together, the only congested controlled protocol that >> is recommended and expected to work on the Internet is TCP. >> > > +1 TCP (implemented in kernel space) can't possibly evolve congestion > avoidance as fast as the Internet has changed, or will change (example: > good handling of middle boxes that use "policers" rather than some flavor > of buffer-size based packet-drop). > The rationale for using UDP for QUIC was indeed that a new IP number would > never make it through the Internet (other protocol deployment attempts have > commonly verified this). It turns out that even UDP is partially blocked > (as recently as 2011) by paths to 5-7% of all chrome clients, which lead to > the "automated fallback" elements of QUIC, > > I think this changes with ipv6, no? Google sees over 26% ipv6 in the usa and growing quickly http://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html And there is evidence that middle boxes go away in ipv6. .... So perhaps the world is changing and your assuptions do not hold > > Hopefully the benefits that QUIC is bringing to the Internet will not be > outlawed (precluded by such commentary). > > Jim > > >> >> Tom >> >> > I think this can be made clearer by simply adding to the list of >> examples: >> > >> > NEW: >> > >> > These mechanisms are difficult to implement correctly. For most >> > applications, the use of one of the existing IETF transport protocols >> > is the simplest method of acquiring the required mechanisms. Doing >> > so also avoids issues that protocols using a new IP protocol number >> > face when being deployed over the Internet, where middleboxes that >> > only support TCP and UDP are not rare. Consequently, the RECOMMENDED >> > alternative to the UDP usage described in the remainder of this >> > section is the use of an IETF transport protocol such as TCP >> > [RFC0793], Stream Control Transmission Protocol (SCTP) [RFC4960], and >> > SCTP Partial Reliability Extension (SCTP-PR) [RFC3758], or Datagram >> > Congestion Control Protocol (DCCP) [RFC4340] with its different >> > congestion control types [RFC4341][RFC4342][RFC5622], or transport >> > protocols specified by the IETF in the future. >> > >> > and removing the examples from the summary in section 7: >> > >> > OLD: >> > >> > | SHOULD use a full-featured transport (TCP, SCTP, DCCP) | | >> > >> > NEW: >> > >> > | SHOULD use a full-featured transport | | >> > >> > Thanks, cheers, >> > >> > Brian >> > >> > >> >> On 18 May 2016, at 02:17, The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> The IESG has received a request from the Transport Area Working Group >> WG >> >> (tsvwg) to consider the following document: >> >> - 'UDP Usage Guidelines' >> >> <draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc5405bis-13.txt> as Best Current Practice >> >> >> >> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits >> >> final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the >> >> ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2016-05-31. Exceptionally, comments >> may be >> >> sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the >> >> beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. >> >> >> >> Abstract >> >> >> >> >> >> The User Datagram Protocol (UDP) provides a minimal message-passing >> >> transport that has no inherent congestion control mechanisms. This >> >> document provides guidelines on the use of UDP for the designers of >> >> applications, tunnels and other protocols that use UDP. Congestion >> >> control guidelines are a primary focus, but the document also >> >> provides guidance on other topics, including message sizes, >> >> reliability, checksums, middlebox traversal, the use of ECN, DSCPs, >> >> and ports. >> >> >> >> Because congestion control is critical to the stable operation of the >> >> Internet, applications and other protocols that choose to use UDP as >> >> an Internet transport must employ mechanisms to prevent congestion >> >> collapse and to establish some degree of fairness with concurrent >> >> traffic. They may also need to implement additional mechanisms, >> >> depending on how they use UDP. >> >> >> >> Some guidance is also applicable to the design of other protocols >> >> (e.g., protocols layered directly on IP or via IP-based tunnels), >> >> especially when these protocols do not themselves provide congestion >> >> control. >> >> >> >> This document obsoletes RFC5405 and adds guidelines for multicast UDP >> >> usage. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The file can be obtained via >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc5405bis/ >> >> >> >> IESG discussion can be tracked via >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc5405bis/ballot/ >> >> >> >> >> >> No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Spud mailing list >> > Spud@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spud >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> QUIC mailing list >> QUIC@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/quic >> > >
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc5405bis-13.tx… Mark Allman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc5405bis-13.tx… Brian Trammell
- Re: [tsvwg] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc5405b… Ca By
- Re: [tsvwg] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc5405b… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [Spud] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc5405bi… Tom Herbert
- Re: [QUIC] [Spud] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tsvwg-rf… Jim Roskind
- Re: [Spud] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc5405bi… Jana Iyengar
- [tsvwg] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc5405bis-1… Ca By