IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"?

Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com> Wed, 21 April 2021 04:28 UTC

Return-Path: <hallam@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B74CE3A0C17 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 21:28:06 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.399
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k1oKSTHypIhw for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 21:28:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-yb1-f181.google.com (mail-yb1-f181.google.com [209.85.219.181]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0AD013A0C0B for <ietf@ietf.org>; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 21:28:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-yb1-f181.google.com with SMTP id y2so43597215ybq.13 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 21:28:01 -0700 (PDT)
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nsV8ifSiSYYizJZyijA9G7qpb6fdDt72+MHzNMFSMKg=; b=sMiORLa5DoxSAQTGisM8ZF6TewNzg7uiZzWOdYvMQlaSNB8aG+TyhwEEI/e5xNShtI uZvG9LWKL4yH34FJKZ27a5nWI1WeLPMd+rPubI8LIYMoPWKRyEGtGE+6koYY5Ae6wr80 AhfR1w0+eRHYCgst/L9r2tR1Aj0G5ER0FPO6n/izhIqD8m70VHeIJydLnIqIHK1N3PeF Cp8w9C3V6Bp1RBvlHWQTGHXP6hEr1iavz3Sx3cKV3GMmuGmSTTRN+h8K6mjwmkqqNKpo 363bMSjn7wL6xniT7bZIkSMAAeap93aO2RkcpS5EN9tgFQ4udhFtRQEJBg9ZvxHlMrTb 8bvw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531hq9pjmezDLqEmmQkd+7ouym7pvVHqqgM2bm3A3tiPiwzQqQHW zKhhn9/adnQe6vTKYfAWs1E34gn9qC3BB3klocU=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyT3GpLvAF5xkb7OAO4l7jIp2zeXWfffi4arAK9tUbhu7BTwmmKH930IpPEZxcmljvUyGWsEsPHCxqQSg8hT7k=
X-Received: by 2002:a25:cb08:: with SMTP id b8mr4621666ybg.522.1618979280576; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 21:28:00 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <CAHw9_iKcacK-gsmL9P_yBuyeGYnB44j1=TxF=VnG3Uu65JKJcQ@mail.gmail.com> <f02a58f3-ff79-3f3f-fc31-7aa17f7d14aa@mtcc.com> <698cf4f7-de67-8efb-a944-b29da42dca31@network-heretics.com> <dc7ff33f-a007-7afe-7d1b-92a242b7c799@mtcc.com> <aaebce66-6318-dc16-b8b0-5a7d7e3361a3@network-heretics.com> <6f709190-7f44-906b-a36b-90a8a4d73153@mtcc.com> <1b9fd5ac-5ef6-0114-4a2e-96e7a53aa665@network-heretics.com> <cec30d23-6d88-9de9-c606-b6cc2bbeb922@mtcc.com> <3fa5b354-c11c-9051-8416-46859f10cce6@network-heretics.com> <20210416031704.gu46kq46fmp6a3yh@crankycanuck.ca> <6AABB43E-FB70-4FDE-AA59-3D2AE25F4B64@me.com> <433863C0CD9449636063CDE3@PSB> <cdaf3837-05f5-a260-d99c-6858eb087d28@network-heretics.com> <373f5062-ff62-0eaa-bf12-8c25a510c1f1@mnt.se> <98c8a89f-5011-1f75-272f-5acaa39c7092@network-heretics.com> <f9a50edc-a5b8-c5a2-92ad-f1e8533643a6@petit-huguenin.org> <20d5c6a4-29bd-45d1-9494-7ab214bf8af8@network-heretics.com> <bf9bf645-dbd8-e51e-5f49-b039f0f67d87@mnt.se> <0b63d094-8c95-409f-282e-86231128f7b5@network-heretics.com> <CAKHUCzw5UzXKXutGXEVNjdYeHxrymhahveSYFpzo9GbiQjcMhA@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAKHUCzw5UzXKXutGXEVNjdYeHxrymhahveSYFpzo9GbiQjcMhA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 00:27:48 -0400
Message-ID: <CAMm+LwgEhY_2pVnf4FYbL-XXY0+XGQQQzz0ejtYmM4mZ=ca3Mw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"?
To: Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net>
Cc: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>, "ietf@ietf.org Discussion" <ietf@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000eae53605c073fca8"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/sSQTCiTpDK2dHIcZx3vH6AMw_tQ>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 04:28:07 -0000

On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 12:36 PM Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 at 16:24, Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 4/19/21 11:16 AM, Leif Johansson wrote:
>>
>> >> That way, they can learn to snarl like the rest of us :)
>> >>
>> >> Keith
>> > Or we assign tasks to old-timers so they can learn not to.
>>
>> In other words, they can spend all of their time politely explaining in
>> detail why proposals are Bad Ideas, instead of getting useful work done.
>>
>>
> Radical thought: What if explaining in detail why a proposal is a Bad Idea
> *is* useful work?
>
> What if it might bring new people in to provide new insight? That strikes
> me as very useful work indeed.
>

That depends on the feedback and if it is actually feedback. I almost
invariably give too much explanation. And the fact something failed 20
years ago isn't always dispositive, but it is important context.

What I noticed some people do is to tell people something is bad without
making any further argument or they will claim certain authorities have
written that something is just a terrible idea. When someone tries that on
me, I invariably contact said authority for their opinion, unless of course
I discussed the issue with them directly before making the proposal.

Thing is, it's not just newcomers who have difficulty with the way IETF
carries on.

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email