Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate November meeting to saving the Internet from the NSA

Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net> Fri, 06 September 2013 23:35 UTC

Return-Path: <dhc@dcrocker.net>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 408F611E8104 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 6 Sep 2013 16:35:41 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -6.554
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.554 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.045, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t3Er02qMh7PJ for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 6 Sep 2013 16:35:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4249F11E80E3 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Fri, 6 Sep 2013 16:35:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.66] (76-218-9-215.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.9.215]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r86NZK8X020867 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 6 Sep 2013 16:35:23 -0700
Message-ID: <522A66A8.6010408@dcrocker.net>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2013 16:35:04 -0700
From: Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net>
Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130801 Thunderbird/17.0.8
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Scott Brim <scott.brim@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate November meeting to saving the Internet from the NSA
References: <5F053C0B-4678-4680-A8BF-62FF282ADDCE@softarmor.com> <alpine.BSF.2.00.1309051743130.47262@hiroshima.bogus.com> <52293197.1060809@gmail.com> <5C7FECAB-8A22-4AF1-B023-456458E1B288@nominum.com> <522949C2.8010206@gmail.com> <5229AEDE.8090202@cisco.com> <CAMzo+1Z7bEmKuBE9Hkx1pTQnZVPajxCWGBN3JF=pAPFwUrN=pQ@mail.gmail.com> <5229ECF0.3040409@dcrocker.net> <A76C47A6-5F5B-4C01-8674-B0939B12839B@softarmor.com> <522A2DEB.9080408@dcrocker.net> <CAPv4CP9wxr1efeEaQ3gABiV=RNediniHWA=Q93nQwvdg2QU0aQ@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAPv4CP9wxr1efeEaQ3gABiV=RNediniHWA=Q93nQwvdg2QU0aQ@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Fri, 06 Sep 2013 16:35:23 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2013 23:35:41 -0000

On 9/6/2013 4:19 PM, Scott Brim wrote:
> On Sep 6, 2013 3:34 PM, "Dave Crocker" <dhc@dcrocker.net
> <mailto:dhc@dcrocker.net>> wrote:
>  > To what end?  Their poor uptake clearly demonstrates some basic
> usability deficiencies.  That doesn't get fixed by promotional efforts.
>
> Or rather, as we've seen in other cases, people just don't see potential
> benefits large enough to motivate them.


Perhaps.  But fundamental usability deficiencies can move these issues 
into the realm that warrants quoting Marshall Rose: "With enough thrust, 
pigs /can/ fly."  Only in this case, it's more like "for some issues, no 
amount of thrust can get this pig into the air."

In other words, considering the issues only in terms of user motivation 
ignores actual basic usability design deficiencies.

Currently, problems with security usability include:

    0. Systems providing very poor information

    1. Systems providing information at very poor times

    2. Users having to know too much

    3. Users having to do too much

Working on user motivation can help a little bit with #3 and none of the 
rest.  It can't help with all of #3 because there are cognitive limits 
that frequently apply.

d/
-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net