Re: New Version Notification for draft-leiba-rfc2119-update-00.txt

Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> Wed, 10 August 2016 09:38 UTC

Return-Path: <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC3B412D0A3 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 02:38:19 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TkyWT8UtJUPc for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 02:38:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-wm0-x229.google.com (mail-wm0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3B3E12B01F for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 02:38:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-wm0-x229.google.com with SMTP id o80so90747284wme.1 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 02:38:17 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=rnse3dBRYhBjNihjP4+BoH4VRb7ruGTSBEn7VDElBkw=; b=t6QH+GCr4CZCQriKKvorVdDwTEkJQcE2YRJ1jLlVBY49rUNB248Gw8OeDSH1xSlAPg A6TqdBmJb91PUSohNYIhih4KLmFWA3GL5z4TlvF4b1D9tGt5AEm/nzIuAdV3BHalzYOh eI7CisJCIu5A3Ygk9NsL1ZxOix4/Bs8ozP/ESa0zn9G8ZrxBk+deADV4n0FtgdZ4iP0x 2Ds8MFXFyWElPItkZrS6TCVU64xVoNh/ZUu2GWK3QdjWPmxneJoHQ0hXG40oGiilQg11 hMNkKbjG14D7mGxYToPTxyp6Ph07/3NuEazu21xW0/0qJ8uX1FAPUwM3sFBJvhJ9h/Zq QJxQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=rnse3dBRYhBjNihjP4+BoH4VRb7ruGTSBEn7VDElBkw=; b=gARw6fAeNhx4H2S5pOQvLrlZR7eGDSAiGfpJp447QcS5OgMfvg4hNXkT5fT7+VDuBV W2rDdMlFRg8fEOyqtFfVw4r+6jPrBLs0mISYezqH+08BYdTRBSkmNNr4z364+l1oMz6x w3rf5hxnVsbUgFiJP7KCKE4uAoQzIXJuICu213g/MKiZs4Z/oqbalSGm6s0brR/QafeY rzR7XLAMiH89rS4dht+WFE/QZXTr98yre1/o4y+PHQE0rNE//pEDKFLphV17chcg3x8s Dq3poXY4L4wQz8ziEPRPvKa7A81OVPthdHJzRAqotAis42MXhUtxdl5JI+P1Q40RJLhA CtRA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AEkoouvMc7WERGf4vsUfQw5wmEA4g0kfScYmxDTYZT10UIe3LsMmAlZY8rXNfvqU/d/KUQ==
X-Received: by 10.28.129.137 with SMTP id c131mr2071310wmd.79.1470821895815; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 02:38:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.2.126] (host213-123-124-182.in-addr.btopenworld.com. [213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f10sm42031808wje.14.2016.08.10.02.38.14 for <ietf@ietf.org> (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Aug 2016 02:38:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-leiba-rfc2119-update-00.txt
To: ietf@ietf.org
References: <147077254472.30640.13738163813175851232.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <CALaySJLHx7ytgZqZ9zQXA3vVSU-pNggQQs+QiDnzQ4tBEH5VAQ@mail.gmail.com> <e0e3e6e2-cdc0-dc23-c8aa-8a284fdd9c1c@isi.edu>
From: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41d1604c-d32a-ee96-8658-22744b828815@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 10:38:10 +0100
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.2.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <e0e3e6e2-cdc0-dc23-c8aa-8a284fdd9c1c@isi.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/tbiabdCddF3_p7OE2HhIbZ9wM_M>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 09:38:20 -0000

I am neutral to inclined to leave in SHALL/SHALL NOT. Other standards bodies
prefer those terms and leaving them in is at worst harmless.

I strongly agree with Joe on REQUIRED, RECOMMENDED, and OPTIONAL.
These are useful terms and ought to be retained.

As to the document, I really see no need to change a text that has
served us so well for nearly 20 years. As a change to RFC2119 it is
not going to be noticed by anyone other than the mainstream IETF
community, and I suspect will cause more confusion than it resolves.

I do not think we should publish this document.

Stewart

On 09/08/2016 23:07, Joe Touch wrote:
> Although I agree with dropping SHALL/SHALL NOT and requiring uppercase,
> I'm not sure it's useful to drop REQUIRED, RECOMMENDED, and OPTIONAL.
>
> I.e., MUST/MAY/SHOULD are directives to a person. The others are
> adjectives describing the resulting features.
>
> I appreciate that we say things like "X is a MUST", but it hurts
> readability vs. "X is REQUIRED".
>
> I'm in favor of retaining those three adjectives.
>
>
> Joe
>
>
> On 8/9/2016 1:08 PM, Barry Leiba wrote:
>> This draft should be self-explanatory -- and please be sure to look at
>> Section 1.1 for some explanations that may short-cut some of the
>> discussion.
>>
>> The bottom line is to update BCP 14 (RFC 2119) to
>> (1) make it clear that the key words MUST(/NOT), SHOULD(/NOT), and MAY
>> are only key words when they're in ALL CAPS, and
>> (2) deprecate the use of the variants (SHALL, RECOMMENDED, OPTIONAL)
>> so as to avoid reserving an unnecessarily number of key words.
>>
>> Discussion here, please, before Ben, who has kindly agreed to
>> AD-sponsor this, sends it out for last call.  And we do expect there
>> to be some significant discussion on this one.
>>
>> Barry
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 2:55 PM,  <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:
>>> A new version of I-D, draft-leiba-rfc2119-update-00.txt
>>> has been successfully submitted by Barry Leiba and posted to the
>>> IETF repository.
>>>
>>> Name:           draft-leiba-rfc2119-update
>>> Revision:       00
>>> Title:          Ambiguity of Uppercase vs Lowercase in RFC 2119 Key Words
>>> Document date:  2016-08-09
>>> Group:          Individual Submission
>>> Pages:          4
>>> URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-leiba-rfc2119-update-00.txt
>>> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-leiba-rfc2119-update/
>>> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leiba-rfc2119-update-00
>>>
>>>
>>> Abstract:
>>>     RFC 2119 specifies common key words that may be used in protocol
>>>     specifications.  This document aims to reduce the ambiguity by
>>>     clarifying that only UPPERCASE usage of the key words have the
>>>     defined special meanings, and by deprecating some versions of the key
>>>     words.
>>>