Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for last-call discussions
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Sat, 14 September 2019 06:45 UTC
Return-Path: <john-ietf@jck.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80E19120033 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 23:45:31 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.898
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3ynnGG_eYdbR for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 23:45:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50F3C12000F for <ietf@ietf.org>; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 23:45:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from <john-ietf@jck.com>) id 1i91oF-0009KB-Am; Sat, 14 Sep 2019 02:45:27 -0400
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 02:45:21 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>
cc: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>, IETF <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for last-call discussions
Message-ID: <073FAB7287FB558ECCED2CE0@PSB>
In-Reply-To: <CABcZeBO0NbEVQ67j8ZRgKXmjT3JeLFAgnSpfMA8CqAg1dp_j5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALaySJKvdoy9MtzHMwq-Ew-EJoUs0V8t+y01FL-E5r3xdyRemQ@mail.gmail.com> <EDBBBD9628A18755F4366D0B@PSB> <CALaySJ+cR0k=HpCvf5cSN4ony9zvzVeOZc=Qqot=cQN=jJF2fA@mail.gmail.com> <E032E905-E395-46CF-8C56-C3EBB8E20C9C@gmail.com> <CABcZeBO0NbEVQ67j8ZRgKXmjT3JeLFAgnSpfMA8CqAg1dp_j5w@mail.gmail.com>
X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10
X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/tscaZjv9wPB_a41sCyzQPL-DXtI>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 06:45:31 -0000
--On Friday, September 13, 2019 13:09 -0700 Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote: >> I am thinking that both lists should have the same >> membership, that is, one can't unsubscribe from only one. >> This would preserve the broad community review of last calls >> and for community discussions, but still allow separate >> discussions. >> > > I disagree with this. Part of the value proposition here is to > allow people to engage with last calls and avoid the... > unpleasantness... which is the ietf@ list. Ekr, I almost agree. There have certainly been weeks lately in which I would classify the bulk of the traffic on the main IETF list as unpleasant and have wished that much of hadn't reached me. However, we claim that the basis of what we do is "IETF consensus". Today, someone who opts out of the IETF list essentially opts out of that consensus process no matter how active they might be in, e.g., particular WGs. If we split the list and the membership of the two lists diverges, I wonder if honesty and transparency require us to adjust our vocabulary to indicate, e.g., "consensus of those who chose to participate in the IETF's broad final review process". best, john
- Planned experiment: A new mailing list for last-c… Barry Leiba
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Andrew G. Malis
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Ross Finlayson
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Barry Leiba
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Richard Barnes
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Tim Chown
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Barry Leiba
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Tim Wattenberg
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Barry Leiba
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Randy Bush
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Christopher Wood
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Tommy Pauly
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… John C Klensin
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Rob Sayre
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Barry Leiba
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Bob Hinden
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Barry Leiba
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… S Moonesamy
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… John C Klensin
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Barry Leiba
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… John C Klensin
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Pete Resnick
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… S Moonesamy
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Barry Leiba
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… S Moonesamy
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Barry Leiba
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Melinda Shore
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Melinda Shore
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Keith Moore
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Eliot Lear
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… avri doria
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Eliot Lear
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… John C Klensin
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Barry Leiba
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Julian Reschke
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Melinda Shore
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… John C Klensin
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… John C Klensin
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Keith Moore
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Rob Sayre
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Pete Resnick
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… John C Klensin
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Rob Sayre
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… John Levine
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Rob Sayre
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… tom petch
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Paul Wouters
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Robert Sparks
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Keith Moore
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Jared Mauch
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… tom petch
- RE: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… 7riw77
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for la… tom petch