Re: Making the Tao a web page
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Sun, 03 June 2012 22:46 UTC
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Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 18:46:44 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Eric Burger <eburger-l@standardstrack.com>, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>
Subject: Re: Making the Tao a web page
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--On Sunday, June 03, 2012 17:40 -0400 Eric Burger <eburger-l@standardstrack.com> wrote: > What we have now *is* sclerotic. See Russ' email above yours. > > Can we PLEASE eat our own dog food? Wikipedia managed not to > melt down when they decided NOT TO BUILD WALLS so there were > no gates for the barbarians to crush. > > Let's just turn on a wiki. Wiki's have a lot of technical > measures to deal with problem edits as well as social measures > to ensure quality. Unlike a protocol that needs one editor, I > do not think we will run into interoperability problems by > having an open Wiki. Yes, you and I and others can think of > exactly four individuals who will try to crash the party. > There are technical measures to keep them out without > burdening one or even four people with keeping up the wiki. Eric, FWIW, I think Paul is completely correct. First of all, what is sclerotic is RFC 4677. Paul has been updating the I-D which is much less of a problem. Most of those "in the know" point people to the I-D. I think that having 4677 be the official copy that some people consult as authoritative is a problem, but it is another problem. Those wiki technical measures depend on someone actively watching for changes and having the time to step in. I don't think we can count on that, at least without a greater level of effort that is required for an editor to receive comments and integrate them. I might change my mind if you, personally, agreed to monitor the wiki in real time and alert the IETF list to any possibly-questionable postings _and_ there was consensus that those on the list wanted that additional traffic. FWIW, I had a need on Friday to look up some details and information that are fairly directly related to the IETF and its relationships to some other bodies and decided to check the Wikipedia pages that showed up in the search. I'd give what I found a score on accuracy and completeness of "joke" -- a few identifiable falsehoods and a lot of convenient omissions (I don't know or care whether those are the result of carelessness, ignorance, or malice). The most relevant of those pages wasn't even flagged with "may be incomplete", "insufficient references", or "may be biased", etc. If you want to demonstrate how well the Wiki system works, drop me a note volunteering to fix the primary page involved and I'll tell you what it is and, if you can't figure it out on your own in under two minutes, where to get authoritative information. In principle, I could do it myself, but I just don't have time... and that, and the fact that no one with the facts and time has spotted those pages, is a large part of the problem with doing something like the Tao by Wiki. Also, perhaps because I have a more vivid (or paranoid) imagination than you do, I can think of a lot more than four individuals who would be inclined to wreck the party. Some of the individuals I can think of also have multiple personalities or collections of sympathetic fellow-travelers (not just multiple email addresses). And, while I would hope they wouldn't engage in such thing, if only because of the risk of getting caught, I can think of a large and well-endowed organization or three who might have incentives to put highly distorted information onto an IETF Wiki that described how the IETF worked, copy that material before it were taken down, and then quote it in other sources. Finally, as far as "our dogfood" is concerned, I just made a careful search through the RFC index and a few other sources and couldn't find an IETF Standards Track document describing the Wiki technology and approach. I couldn't even find an Informational document. So, unless I've missed something, this particular food belongs to some other dog. _Our_ dog food would be to follow the precedent set with RFC 5000. And I think that is exactly what Paul and several others, including myself, have been suggesting. best, john
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … Eliot Lear
- Mission statement [Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-… Brian E Carpenter
- Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffma… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… Dave Crocker
- ICANN relationship [Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… Dave Crocker
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … Yoav Nir
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … Dave Crocker
- Re: Making the Tao a web page Paul Hoffman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … SM
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… Klaas Wierenga
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… Simon Perreault
- Re: Mission statement [Re: Last Call: <draft-hoff… John C Klensin
- Re: Mission statement [Re: Last Call: <draft-hoff… Scott Brim
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … John C Klensin
- Re: Making the Tao a web page Fred Baker
- Re: Mission statement [Re: Last Call: <draft-hoff… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … Brian E Carpenter
- IANA [Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… Melinda Shore
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… Martin Rex
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… Yoav Nir
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… Ben Niven-Jenkins
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… Joel jaeggli
- Making the Tao a web page Paul Hoffman
- Re: Making the Tao a web page Nick Hilliard
- Re: Making the Tao a web page Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: Making the Tao a web page Fadi Mohsen
- Re: Making the Tao a web page John C Klensin
- Re: Making the Tao a web page SM
- RE: Making the Tao a web page GT RAMIREZ, Medel G.
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… John Levine
- Re: IANA [Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bi… Thierry Moreau
- Re: IANA [Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bi… Fred Baker
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call:<draft-hof… t.p.
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call:<draft-hof… Randy Bush
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call:<draft-hof… Yoav Nir
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… Thomas Nadeau
- Re: Making the Tao a web page Nick Hilliard
- Re: IANA [Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bi… David Conrad
- Re: Making the Tao a web page Russ Housley
- Re: Colloquial language [Re: Last Call: <draft-ho… Joel jaeggli
- Re: Making the Tao a web page Eric Burger
- Re: Making the Tao a web page John C Klensin
- Re: Making the Tao a web page Melinda Shore
- Re: Making the Tao a web page SM
- Re: Making the Tao a web page John C Klensin
- Re: Making the Tao a web page John C Klensin
- Re: Making the Tao a web page Lixia Zhang
- Re: Making the Tao a web page SM
- Re: Making the Tao a web page Dave Crocker
- Re: Making the Tao a web page SM
- Re: Making the Tao a web page Lucy Lynch
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … Paul Hoffman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … Bradner, Scott
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … Paul Hoffman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … Bradner, Scott
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … Paul Hoffman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … Eliot Lear
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … Bradner, Scott
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … Glen Zorn
- [Fwd: Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15… Glen Zorn
- Re: [Fwd: Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bi… Randy Bush
- Re: [Fwd: Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bi… Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [Fwd: Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bi… Glen Zorn
- RE: [Fwd: Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bi… Yoav Nir
- Re: [Fwd: Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bi… John Levine
- Re: [Fwd: Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bi… Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [Fwd: Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bi… Randy Bush
- Re: Last Call: <draft-hoffman-tao4677bis-15.txt> … John C Klensin