Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work
t.p. <daedulus@btconnect.com> Thu, 26 February 2015 18:39 UTC
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From: "t.p." <daedulus@btconnect.com>
To: Mary Barnes <mary.h.barnes@gmail.com>, Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>
References: <CAL0qLwZk=k-CWLte_ChK9f1kzLwMOTRyi7AwFa8fLjBsextBcA@mail.gmail.com> <2457EE06-4960-40B5-AF10-2EDFBF18B2B6@nominum.com> <7C601AA4-55C4-43FE-B2FE-1D22BD73F166@vigilsec.com> <CAKHUCzyJ62hVyJVVLuL5-nXx_i5VO2cW3LA6R1sdZbDHxoY_Tw@mail.gmail.com> <43ADF7ED-6A42-4097-8FFA-5DA0FC21D07A@vigilsec.com> <CAKHUCzyfB+GhNqmDhrzki4tVn0faMLyt_cqgeHFcQL2b5pkkAQ@mail.gmail.com> <54DE3E1C.6060105@gmail.com> <007301d04927$64890d40$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <54EDA697.5070107@cisco.com> <01c701d050f6$c80fcd00$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <CAMm+LwgzXg+QM29ygS0Bv+HOo2Gd-hPByXYz2aVu-V4b=Jak+Q@mail.gmail.com> <54EEFCFB.7080107@cisco.com> <047F946E-3041-4510-8F78-D8D743C4FEED@nominum.com> <939B49536ECD5BFA17B5E5C4@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <48DFF1A2-9BD0-4E08-B44A-704D5DCC278E@nominum.com> <54EF3644.7090808@joelhalpern.com> <02ED4331-9441-484C-96A6-70352C42ABBC@nominum.com> <54EF426A.9070706@joelhalpern.com> <CABmDk8nd9wXwRZevHpcszj+30VyCRydy=W=GCAZsmfxjfA0j8w@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 18:32:58 +0000
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----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Barnes" <mary.h.barnes@gmail.com> To: "Joel Halpern Direct" <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 4:13 PM > On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 9:57 AM, Joel Halpern Direct < > jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com> wrote: > > > One of the working groups where I have observed this is one where I am a > > document author and was an active contributor. I am still trying to > > contribute. Minutes don't cut it. (I looked at the minutes from the one > > session I participated in. While they were formally correct, I doubt that > > they would have helped anyone not on the call actually engage in the > > discussion. As evidence I point out that the discussions do not get > > followed up on the list. > > > [MB] Aren't these all management issues? I would think the WG chairs would > ensure that all the key contributors are available. And, of course, there > should be adequate minutes produced along with action items identified and > I would assume those are taken to the mailing list and/or added to an issue > tracker. Mary I have flagged netmod as both the WG that has produced the most comprehensive documentation and the one which held the most Interims in 2014. It is also a WG I have tracked since it was formed (but no longer can). The most recent Virtual Interim minutes, http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netmod/current/msg11939.html (which do give full names of the participants) include " MB: I believe C1 summarizes how things work today. AB: Are we trying to come up with tighter rules for humans or for tools to take advantage of the tighter rules? AB: I am not sure YANG 1.0 specifies C1 explicitly somewhere. JS: Does A3 not follow from A2? KW: A3 is more a corollary of A2. AB: The high-level problem is how to create and maintain the information needed to achieve A4. " and I have no idea what A1 to C1 mean; while the mailing list posts http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netmod/current/maillist.html have subjects such as Y25 new solution Y25-02 Y59 action VRFY :Y16: module advertisement optimization DEAD :Y54: remove the advertisement of conformance information .. There is a 60 strong list of issues identified by Yxx (not A1 to C1), often with multiple solutions, and a finite state machine (DEAD, EDIT, VRFY ...) with seven states. The WG is progressing and will produce, but whether anyone outside the core of about six participants, or even they in a year's time (the WG tends to revisit the same issues every year or two), can tell you how a decision was arrived at by whom, I doubt. The mailing list is archived but what else is? as Joel said earlier > > But judging from what I see, even an active > > participant and author would have trouble if they could not make the phone > > calls. This is, for better or worse, the changing way of working I have in mind Tom Petch > As others have noted email is not the best way to resolve some of > the more complex problems introduced in our technical work. I totally > agree about the timezone issue. For CLUE WG, folks were flexible about > shifting our meetings to ensure an attendee in Australia could attend when > we were discussing issues to which he had input. Note, that we identified > ahead of time on our WG wiki what the topic for that meeting was. We were > flexible about re-arranging those for the key contributors. [/MB] > > > One of the other groups I follow, and no I don't expect the work to be > > optimized for a follower. But judging from what I see, even an active > > participant and author would have trouble if they could not make the phone > > calls. > > > > We claim that we do our work on the email list. I do understand that > > phone calls and face to face meetings are useful for resolving hard > > issues. I am not saying "don't have interims". But if one is having a > > phone call every two to three weeks, then the working group is NOT > > conducting its work on the mailing list. If we want to throw in the towel > > and say that you need a higher engagement level to participate, then we > > should own up to that. It will severely harm cross-fertilization and > > participation in multiple working groups. But maybe that is what we need > > to give up. > > > [MB] In CLUE WG, we had weekly calls (if we had a topic identified that we > felt benefitted from a verbal discussion. Again, I think it's a management > issue if things are not documented and what is deemed to be consensus is > not taken to the WG mailing list for confirmation and any additional > discussion as necessary. I still consider the work having been conducted > on the mailing list in that we posted links (or directly the minutes) to > the WG mailing list and when we added issues to the tracker, the WG gets > notified. [/MB] > > > > > But pretending that frequent working group (not design team, working > > group) conference calls are a good way to work and consistent with our > > ethos does not match what I have seen. > > > [MB] I, of course, totally disagree. We should use all the communication > tools available to progress our work. I totally agree of the importance of > traceability in the email archives, which is why links to minutes, issues > in the tracker, etc. ought all be posted to the WG mailing list. IMHO, we > would actually benefit from WGs actually using the wikis to more carefully > document decisions - it's a heck of lot easier in some cases than trying to > dig through WG or personal email archives. [/MB] > > > Yours, > > Joel > > > > > > On 2/26/15 10:15 AM, Ted Lemon wrote: > > > >> On Feb 26, 2015, at 10:05 AM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> I need to agree with John here. There are several WGs I try to > >>> monitor that started having frequent interim conference calls. > >>> There is no way I can reliably make time for that. The advantage > >>> of email is that I can fit it in around the work I need to do > >>> (including reading it during corporate conference calls.) In one > >>> case I have had to dramatically reduce my effective participation > >>> in the WG because most of the work moved to the conference calls. > >>> > >> > >> If you "try to monitor" these working groups, it sounds like you > >> aren't an active participant. The meetings are supposed to be > >> minuted, so you ought to be able to monitor them by reading the > >> minutes. > >> > >> Do you think we should optimize working groups for getting work done, > >> or for being monitored? Or have I misunderstood what you mean when > >> you say "try to monitor"? > >> > >> > > >
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- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Ted Lemon
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- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: about remote attendance and hallway discussio… Mary Barnes
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- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… John C Klensin
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Mary Barnes
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… John C Klensin
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ray Pelletier
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Mary Barnes
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Mary Barnes
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Mary Barnes
- Re: Remote participation fees John Leslie
- Re: Remote participation fees John Leslie
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… John C Klensin
- Re: Remote participation fees John Leslie
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Dave Cridland
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Remote participation fees John Leslie
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… John C Klensin
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Randy Bush
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- RE: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Randy Bush
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- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Dave Cridland
- RE: Remote participation fees Christer Holmberg
- Re: Remote participation fees John C Klensin
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Michael Richardson
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Dave Cridland
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Dave Cridland
- RE: Remote participation fees Simon Pietro Romano
- Re: Remote participation fees Simon Pietro Romano
- Re: Remote participation fees John C Klensin
- Re: Remote participation fees Simon Pietro Romano
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Melinda Shore
- Re: Remote participation fees Stewart Bryant
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- RE: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… James Gannon
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- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Carlos Vera Quintana
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Sam Hartman
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom Allison Mankin
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY John C Klensin
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: Remote participation fees Eric Burger
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Yoav Nir
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: Remote participation fees Tim Chown
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing par… Eric Burger
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Ted Lemon
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Dave Crocker
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benson Schliesser
- Re: Remote participation fees Nico Williams
- Re: Remote participation fees Nico Williams
- Re: Remote participation fees John C Klensin
- "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing the w… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Benson Schliesser
- Re: Remote participation fees Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Yoav Nir
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… t.p.
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work John C Klensin
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Alia Atlas
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel Halpern Direct
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Mary Barnes
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Dave Crocker
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benson Schliesser
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Nico Williams
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Benson Schliesser
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Andy Bierman
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benson Schliesser
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work John C Klensin
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Roy T. Fielding
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Nico Williams
- RE: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Christer Holmberg
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Alia Atlas
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… t.p.
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Mary Barnes
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Nico Williams
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Stephen Farrell
- Re: sweets to the sweet, was 'Paywall, ' IETF sel… John Levine
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… l.wood
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… John C Klensin
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Randy Bush
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… John C Klensin
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Donald Eastlake
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… joel jaeggli
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Dave Cridland
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Dave Cridland
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Andy Bierman
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.