Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb
Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> Mon, 02 December 2013 15:49 UTC
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Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 07:49:45 -0800
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Subject: Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb
From: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@gmail.com>
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On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@gmail.com>wrote: > On 12/1/13 8:01 AM, Ted Hardie wrote: > > For what it's worth, all the chairs agree that failure to get consensus > > is a valid outcome and it may be where we end up. The internal > > discussion among the chairs and RAI ADs was extremely extensive and not > > at all fun; think soul-searching, beating of breasts, tearing of sack > > cloth, and wearing of ashes. Trust us that we did not do this lightly; > > as one of us put it in the internal discussion: "We're going to get an > > epic beat down for this". > > You did not receive an "epic beat down" although I think you > probably should have (or something like one). Well, the week is young, and lots of Americans were off. > What you did > was huge and has impacts far outside the scope of one > decision in one working group. > > Just to get the tense structures right, we are currently in the "a proposal has been made to the working group and will be revised" phase. The next step, should we get there, is a consensus call to use this alternative process. That is *explicitly* using our standard process for reaching consensus, as Magnus's note to the working group makes clear. > Look, I've been feeling for some time that our decision-making > structures don't work for us anymore - that there are too many > people looking for optimal personal outcomes (as opposed to > optimal organizational, good-for-the-internet outcomes), there > aren't enough people invested in a healthy process, and that > it's become incredibly difficult - too difficult - to reach > decisions in a contested space. However, changing decision- > making to a voting-based process assumes changes to the > organization that I think are devastating. When we distinguish > between those who are eligible to vote and those who aren't > we create a membership, and when we vote and have a membership > we enter into the very nasty problem of balancing what I think > is our most important organizational characteristic - openness - > against the problem of ballot box stuffing. > > The chairs and ADs discussed this set of issues at great length and proposed this despite those (with a great deal of queasiness and and discomfort, I reiterate). We did so because we think we will _lose interoperability_ if we don't get a decision here. I agree with you that our greatest organizational characteristic is openness, but our biggest focus as an engineering organization is interoperability. If we give that up because our process can't get us there, we have lost something quite real. Not just relevance, but an opportunity to make the Internet better by enabling an ecosystem the really enhances what we can do with the web. That's an opportunity cost that cuts all of us who have been working on this pretty hard. I don't ask you to love this idea; I don't. I do hope you understand the hard place on the other side of the rock. > We were quite successful in minimizing the impact of the EFF- > motivated mailing list deluge on the TLS authz patent, which > I don't think we could have done if we'd been using the > processes you've invented. We certainly wouldn't have been > able to have a good outcome in nvo3. Speaking of which, that > working group was deadlocked for quite awhile but managed their > way out of it without going to a voting model. > > I think that we're not that far away from needing to take > a long, hard look at how we're structured with an eye towards > what we need to do to maintain our openness while remaining > effective. I agree, but unfortunately the last few process changes have all gone forward in ways that strongly indicate that the organization is only willing to consider incremental change (and that mostly done outside of working group processes). What you describe may require a little more punctuated equilibrium than we can currently muster. > I think the particular situation in WebRTC, with > a roll-your-own voting process, is absolutely the wrong > context for doing that - it needs to be done at the pace at > which it needs to be done and it needs to be done thoughtfully > and thoroughly, and not because one particular working group > can't figure out how to go forward but needs something now. > > "Wait for it" means "lose interoperability". Whether that wait is for the market to decide, for the IETF to find new processes, or for new codecs without IPR to appear. Just so we're clear. Ted > Melinda > >
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Jari Arkko
- Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Gonzalo Camarillo
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Eliot Lear
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Dave Cridland
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Eric Burger
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Dave Cridland
- A few thoughts on processes WAS (Re: Alternative … Gonzalo Camarillo
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Eric Burger
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Eliot Lear
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Dave Cridland
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Dave Crocker
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Eric Rescorla
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Dave Cridland
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Ted Lemon
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Sam Hartman
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Eric Rescorla
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Dave Crocker
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Cullen Jennings
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Dave Cridland
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Ted Lemon
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Melinda Shore
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Tim Bray
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Yoav Nir
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Michael Richardson
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Ted Lemon
- RE: [rtcweb] Alternative decision process in RTCW… Bernard Aboba
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Carsten Bormann
- Re: [rtcweb] Alternative decision process in RTCW… Ted Lemon
- Re: [rtcweb] Alternative decision process in RTCW… Roberto Peon
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Dave Cridland
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Stephan Wenger
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Roger Jørgensen
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Harald Alvestrand
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Dave Crocker
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Melinda Shore
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Eric Burger
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Ofer Inbar
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb cb.list6
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Ted Hardie
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Melinda Shore
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Eric Burger
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Paul Hoffman
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Ted Hardie
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Avri Doria
- RE: [rtcweb] Alternative decision process in RTCW… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] Alternative decision process in RTCW… Mary Barnes
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] Alternative decision process in RTCW… Ron
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb cb.list6
- Daughter of CODEC (was Re: Alternative decision p… Eric Burger
- Re: Daughter of CODEC (was Re: Alternative decisi… cb.list6
- Re: Daughter of CODEC (was Re: Alternative decisi… Mary Barnes
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Carsten Bormann
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Dave Crocker
- Re: Daughter of CODEC (was Re: Alternative decisi… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [rtcweb] Alternative decision process in RTCW… Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [rtcweb] Alternative decision process in RTCW… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Pete Resnick
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Jari Arkko
- Re: [rtcweb] Alternative decision process in RTCW… Dave Crocker
- Re: Daughter of CODEC (was Re: Alternative decisi… Eric Burger
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Sam Hartman
- Re: [rtcweb] Alternative decision process in RTCW… Sam Hartman
- Re: [rtcweb] Alternative decision process in RTCW… Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [rtcweb] Alternative decision process in RTCW… Martin Thomson
- Re: Alternative decision process in RTCWeb Ofer Inbar
- Re: [rtcweb] Alternative decision process in RTCW… Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] Alternative decision process in RTCW… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [rtcweb] Alternative decision process in RTCW… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Alternative decision process in RTCW… Ted Lemon
- Re: [rtcweb] Alternative decision process in RTCW… Eric Burger
- Re: [rtcweb] Alternative decision process in RTCW… Jim Gettys
- 0, 1, or many standards and their impact (or not) Eliot Lear
- Re: [rtcweb] Alternative decision process in RTCW… Hector Santos
- Re: 0, 1, or many standards and their impact (or … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [rtcweb] Alternative decision process in RTCW… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Daughter of CODEC (was Re: Alternative decisi… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [rtcweb] Alternative decision process in RTCW… Jari Arkko
- Re: Daughter of CODEC (was Re: Alternative decisi… Gonzalo Camarillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Alternative decision process in RTCW… Eric Burger
- Re: Daughter of CODEC (was Re: Alternative decisi… Richard Barnes
- Re: [rtcweb] Alternative decision process in RTCW… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [rtcweb] Alternative decision process in RTCW… David Singer
- Re: Daughter of CODEC (was Re: Alternative decisi… Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: A few thoughts on processes WAS (Re: Alternat… Eliot Lear
- Re: A few thoughts on processes WAS (Re: Alternat… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: A few thoughts on processes WAS (Re: Alternat… Dave Crocker
- Re: A few thoughts on processes WAS (Re: Alternat… Gonzalo Camarillo
- Re: A few thoughts on processes WAS (Re: Alternat… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Daughter of CODEC (was Re: Alternative decisi… Timothy B. Terriberry