Re: tone policing
Dan Harkins <dharkins@lounge.org> Mon, 09 September 2019 23:20 UTC
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Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2019 16:20:26 -0700
From: Dan Harkins <dharkins@lounge.org>
Subject: Re: tone policing
In-reply-to: <a7a9f058-0acf-fa3b-c96e-c2504caf497e@joelhalpern.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, ietf@ietf.org
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Hi Joel, On 9/9/19 3:43 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > Dan, you asked for specific examples of speech whose acceptability has > changed. > > A clear and simple example is personal attacks. It is no longer > acceptable (or at least, we try to make it impossible) to respond to > an argument by saying "you do not know what you are talking about, so > we should ignore your input." Other even more extreme and personal > comments were once accepted in this community. they are not accepted > any longer. I witnessed someone at the mic tell a presenter that his was the worst idea in the history of the IETF. That's not really acceptable but it was also way back in the 20th century. I haven't heard that kind of talk in 2 decades. Admittedly I tend to hang out with a small group of people and probably missed some egregious behavior but I don't think personal attacks have ever been OK. > This debate seems to be about how do we handle cases which are not > simple and obvious personal insults, but can be taken as such. (Part > of the complexity lies in who could reasonably take it as an insult > and when.) Given what has been acceptable in at least some working > groups in the recent past, I personally hope we can improve the > situation. Having said that, I do recognize that we need to avoid > going overboard and losing the free technical discussion that is the > core of our work. Right, and there's the rub: "but can be taken as such." We are sadly becoming a kind of victim culture where claiming victimhood empowers the claimant. Combine that with the fact that there are many people entering the workaday world with a degree who have gotten participation trophies their entire life, had helicopter parents ensuring that nothing troubling ever entered their bubble, and who went to universities with safe spaces (coloring books optional) that insulated them from things that might sound "harsh" or "mean", and now we have a potential to do great harm. Yes, we need to avoid going overboard. Agree 100%. How do we handle cases that aren't simple and obvious personal insults? We let them slide and wait. I'd say ignore the comment as much as possible. If the speaker meant it as an attack a subsequent statement will be more simple and obvious, and there will be a subsequent statement if the attack is ignored. regards, Dan. > Yours, > Joel > > On 9/9/2019 6:27 PM, Dan Harkins wrote: >> >> Hi Rich, >> >> On 9/9/19 1:42 PM, Salz, Rich wrote: >>> > The world has evolved, and what used to be acceptable is now >>> commonly seen as less so, and as a worthwhile trade-off for more >>> inclusivity. You seem opposed to the IETF doing this, or do I >>> misunderstand you? >>>> You misunderstand me. I do not object to trying to be more >>>> inclusive, >>> but I strongly object to imposing arbitrary, poorly-defined >>> constraints >>> on IETF contributions. >>> I am sorry if I was not clear. I am saying "we are choosing to do A >>> in order to get B" You are saying "I want B without A" >>> >>> So, like Paul asked: how do you propose to get B without A? >> >> You are assuming that if you do A you'll get B. >> >> What is this evolution of which you speak? Can you give me >> specific examples of things >> that used to be acceptable at the IETF but now are commonly seen as >> less so? >> >> I'm pretty sure B in your example is "more inclusive" but I'm not >> sure what A is. >> >> If A is more mentoring then great. If A is more Sunday classes for >> newcomers then great. >> If A is prohibition on speech that is based on the recipient deeming >> it "toxic" or "harsh" or >> "hurtful" or some vague word then not great at all. >> >> regards, >> >> Dan. >> >> >>
- New proposal/New SOW comment period Sarah Banks
- Re: New proposal/New SOW comment period Michael StJohns
- Re: New proposal/New SOW comment period Stephen Farrell
- Re: New proposal/New SOW comment period Sarah Banks
- Re: New proposal/New SOW comment period Matthew A. Miller
- Re: New proposal/New SOW comment period Eliot Lear
- RE: [rfc-i] New proposal/New SOW comment period Adrian Farrel
- Re: New proposal/New SOW comment period S Moonesamy
- Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW commen… John C Klensin
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Bob Hinden
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Keith Moore
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Adam Roach
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Keith Moore
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Adam Roach
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Bob Hinden
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Adam Roach
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Michael StJohns
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Keith Moore
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Michael
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Adam Roach
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Michael
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Keith Moore
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Randy Bush
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… John C Klensin
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Keith Moore
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Randy Bush
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Randy Bush
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Keith Moore
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Melinda Shore
- Re: [rfc-i] New proposal/New SOW comment period Eliot Lear
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Leif Johansson
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [rfc-i] New proposal/New SOW comment period S Moonesamy
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Bob Hinden
- Re: New proposal/New SOW comment period Michael StJohns
- Re: [rfc-i] New proposal/New SOW comment period Michael StJohns
- SAA Do's and Don'ts Michael StJohns
- Re: SAA Do's and Don'ts Keith Moore
- Re: SAA Do's and Don'ts Melinda Shore
- tone policing (was: SAA Do's and Don'ts) Keith Moore
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Theodore Y. Ts'o
- Re: [rfc-i] New proposal/New SOW comment period Adam Roach
- Re: SAA Do's and Don'ts John C Klensin
- Re: SAA Do's and Don'ts Masataka Ohta
- Re: tone policing (was: SAA Do's and Don'ts) Mark Nottingham
- Re: tone policing Keith Moore
- Re: tone policing Mark Nottingham
- Re: SAA Do's and Don'ts Keith Moore
- Re: tone policing Keith Moore
- Re: tone policing Masataka Ohta
- Re: tone policing Mark Nottingham
- Re: tone policing Keith Moore
- Re: tone policing Mark Nottingham
- Re: tone policing Rob Sayre
- Re: tone policing Stephen Farrell
- Re: tone policing Keith Moore
- Re: tone policing Melinda Shore
- Re: tone policing Masataka Ohta
- Re: tone policing Masataka Ohta
- Re: tone policing Keith Moore
- Re: tone policing Adam Roach
- Re: tone policing Keith Moore
- Re: tone policing Ted Lemon
- Re: tone policing Keith Moore
- Re: [rfc-i] New proposal/New SOW comment period Michael StJohns
- Re: tone policing lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk
- Re: tone policing Rob Sayre
- Re: [rfc-i] New proposal/New SOW comment period Adam Roach
- Re: tone policing Adam Roach
- Re: tone policing Masataka Ohta
- Re: tone policing Dan Harkins
- Re: tone policing Rob Sayre
- Re: tone policing Ted Lemon
- Re: tone policing Keith Moore
- Re: tone policing Ted Lemon
- Re: tone policing Keith Moore
- Re: tone policing Christer Holmberg
- Re: tone policing Ted Lemon
- Re: tone policing Paul Wouters
- Re: tone policing Keith Moore
- Re: tone policing Nick Hilliard
- Re: tone policing Keith Moore
- Re: tone policing Nick Hilliard
- Re: tone policing Ted Lemon
- Re: tone policing Dirk-Willem van Gulik
- Re: tone policing Ted Lemon
- Re: tone policing Dan Harkins
- Re: tone policing Adam Roach
- Re: tone policing Keith Moore
- Re: tone policing ned+ietf
- Re: tone policing Dan Harkins
- Re: tone policing Randy Bush
- Re: tone policing Theodore Y. Ts'o
- Re: Sergeant-at-Armss and New proposal/New SOW co… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: tone policing Masataka Ohta
- Re: tone policing Patrik Fältström
- Re: [rfc-i] New proposal/New SOW comment period Sarah Banks
- Re: [rfc-i] New proposal/New SOW comment period Sarah Banks
- Re: [rfc-i] New proposal/New SOW comment period Sarah Banks
- RE: [rfc-i] New proposal/New SOW comment period Adrian Farrel
- Re: tone policing lloyd.wood
- Re: [rfc-i] New proposal/New SOW comment period Michael StJohns
- Re: [rfc-i] New proposal/New SOW comment period Michael StJohns
- Re: [rfc-i] New proposal/New SOW comment period Sarah Banks
- Re: [rfc-i] New proposal/New SOW comment period Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: tone policing Salz, Rich
- Re: tone policing Keith Moore
- Re: tone policing Ted Lemon
- Re: tone policing Keith Moore
- Re: tone policing Ted Lemon
- Re: tone policing Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: tone policing Keith Moore
- Re: tone policing Ted Lemon
- Re: tone policing Keith Moore
- Re: tone policing Paul Wouters
- Re: tone policing Salz, Rich
- Re: tone policing Doug Royer
- Re: tone policing Keith Moore
- Re: tone policing Dan Harkins
- Re: tone policing Joel M. Halpern
- Re: tone policing Salz, Rich
- Re: tone policing Salz, Rich
- Re: tone policing Bron Gondwana
- Re: tone policing Dan Harkins
- Re: tone policing Stephen Farrell
- Re: tone policing Brian E Carpenter
- Re: tone policing Dan Harkins
- Re: tone policing Bron Gondwana
- Re: tone policing Masataka Ohta
- Re: tone policing Dan Harkins
- Re: tone policing Ted Lemon
- Re: tone policing Randy Bush
- Re: tone policing Leif Johansson
- Agenda Denial Was: tone policing Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Agenda Denial Was: tone policing Ted Lemon
- Re: Agenda Denial Was: tone policing Paul Wouters
- BIMI: Re: tone policing Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Agenda Denial Was: tone policing Keith Moore
- Re: Agenda Denial Was: tone policing Keith Moore
- Re: Agenda Denial Was: tone policing Ted Lemon
- Re: tone policing Keith Moore
- Re: Agenda Denial Was: tone policing Keith Moore
- Re: Agenda Denial Was: tone policing Stan Kalisch
- Re: Agenda Denial Was: tone policing Dan Harkins
- Re: Agenda Denial Was: tone policing Nico Williams
- Re: Agenda Denial Was: tone policing Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Agenda Denial Was: tone policing Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Agenda Denial Was: tone policing Keith Moore
- Re: tone policing Bron Gondwana
- Re: New proposal/New SOW comment period John C Klensin
- Re: New proposal/New SOW comment period Michael Richardson
- Re: New proposal/New SOW comment period John C Klensin
- Re: New proposal/New SOW comment period Sarah Banks
- Re: New proposal/New SOW comment period Sarah Banks
- Re: [rfc-i] New proposal/New SOW comment period Ted Lemon
- Re: [IAB] New proposal/New SOW comment period Christian Huitema
- Re: [rfc-i] New proposal/New SOW comment period Sarah Banks
- Re: [rfc-i] New proposal/New SOW comment period Ted Lemon
- Re: [rfc-i] New proposal/New SOW comment period Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [rfc-i] New proposal/New SOW comment period Henrik Levkowetz
- Re: [rfc-i] New proposal/New SOW comment period Leif Johansson
- Re: New proposal/New SOW comment period John C Klensin
- Re: New proposal/New SOW comment period (off-topi… S Moonesamy
- Re: New proposal/New SOW comment period Sarah Banks
- Re: [IAB] New proposal/New SOW comment period John C Klensin
- Re: [IAB] New proposal/New SOW comment period Stephen Farrell
- Re: [rfc-i] [IAB] New proposal/New SOW comment pe… Brian E Carpenter
- "community" for the RFC series (was: Re: [rfc-i] … Stephen Farrell
- Re: "community" for the RFC series Brian E Carpenter
- Re: "community" for the RFC series (was: Re: [rfc… John C Klensin
- Re: [IAB] New proposal/New SOW comment period Christian Huitema
- Re: "community" for the RFC series Stephen Farrell
- The IETF, Standards process, and the impact on th… Michael StJohns
- Re: The IETF, Standards process, and the impact o… Nico Williams
- Re: The IETF, Standards process, and the impact o… John C Klensin
- Re: The IETF, Standards process, and the impact o… John C Klensin
- Re: The IETF, Standards process, and the impact o… John C Klensin
- Re: The IETF, Standards process, and the impact o… Nico Williams
- Re: The IETF, Standards process, and the impact o… Michael StJohns
- Re: "community" for the RFC series Christian Huitema
- Re: The IETF, Standards process, and the impact o… Nico Williams
- Re: The IETF, Standards process, and the impact o… Keith Moore
- Re: The IETF, Standards process, and the impact o… John C Klensin
- Re: The IETF, Standards process, and the impact o… Nico Williams
- Re: "community" for the RFC series Leif Johansson
- Re: "community" for the RFC series Stephen Farrell
- Re: "community" for the RFC series Randy Bush
- Re: "community" for the RFC series Brian E Carpenter
- Re: The IETF, Standards process, and the impact o… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: The IETF, Standards process, and the impact o… Keith Moore
- Re: [rfc-i] "community" for the RFC series Henrik Levkowetz
- Re: "community" for the RFC series John C Klensin
- Re: "community" for the RFC series Stephen Farrell
- Re: The IETF, Standards process, and the impact o… Randy Presuhn
- Re: The IETF, Standards process, and the impact o… Christian Huitema
- Re: "community" for the RFC series S Moonesamy
- Re: "community" for the RFC series Brian E Carpenter
- Re: "community" for the RFC series Michael StJohns
- Re: "community" for the RFC series Stephen Farrell
- Re: "community" for the RFC series Stephen Farrell
- Re: "community" for the RFC series Brian E Carpenter
- Re: The IETF, Standards process, and the impact o… Michael Richardson
- Re: "community" for the RFC series Christian Huitema
- Re: "community" for the RFC series Christian Huitema
- Re: "community" for the RFC series Brian E Carpenter
- Re: "community" for the RFC series Stephen Farrell
- Re: "community" for the RFC series Keith Moore
- Re: "community" for the RFC series Christian Huitema
- Re: "community" for the RFC series Stephen Farrell
- Re: [IAB] "community" for the RFC series Colin Perkins
- Re: "community" for the RFC series Brian E Carpenter
- Re: "community" for the RFC series Keith Moore
- Re: "community" for the RFC series Brian E Carpenter