Re: portable e-mail, now Trying to do too much (was Re: the introduction problem, etc.)
Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com> Sun, 22 May 2022 19:14 UTC
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From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com>
Date: Sun, 22 May 2022 15:14:31 -0400
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Subject: Re: portable e-mail, now Trying to do too much (was Re: the introduction problem, etc.)
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
Cc: John Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, IETF Discussion Mailing List <ietf@ietf.org>
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I think this conversation is missing the real problem which is actually a usability / affordances issue. The architecture of mailing lists sucks. It has always sucked. There is no way to implement a push messaging protocol that is not going to suck and a push messaging protocol without ubiquitous authentication is going to suck really bad. The answer has always been to move to a pull protocol such as NNTP client-server (abandoning the server-server flood fill) or IMAP or the like. Why don't we do that? Well it is just too much effort to configure. I am aware someone has an IMAP service somewhere for IETF lists and there have been NNTP services. But neither of those work with my mail clients. And configuring my clients to be able to post while accessing the mail that way sucks even worse. Currently, one of the clients that I have to be able to access my IETF messages through is a Web Browser. I do think we could get to a point where this was fixed. But to do that we have to fix mailman and we also need to persuade people to start writing messaging clients that are built around a new pull protocol. Now the 'new' protocol might be entirely new or it might just be a layer on IMAP with a small amount of extension work to support a different access mechanism. I am not yet sure. Since the Mesh gives me the ability to provision every device I use with public keys for authentication, etc. etc. I am going to build off that platform. But I could do it without PKI/TKI if I had to. Part 1 is to modify MAILMAN to 1) Add an X-header to a URI describing the connection point to the new protocol endpoint. 2) Accept posts from a submissions portal for people using the new protocol even if they are not mailman subscribers 3) Suppress delivery to subscribers using the new portal 4) Write out posts to both an index append only log and a message body append only log. That is not a vast amount of code (or at least so I guess). Part 2 is to create a Web subscription portal that allows people to sign up to get messages through the new mechanism This should provide for email callback authentication of the email address of existing subscribers. Part 3 is to write a messaging client that supports both the legacy delivery scheme and the new one. Since I am not aware of an existing client capable of interacting with end-to-end encrypted social media content, I have to write a client anyways. On Sat, May 21, 2022 at 7:30 AM Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote: > > John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote: > > I am no more pleased than anyone else that some large mail systems > > misused DMARC to outsource the support costs of their security > failures > > and as an entirely predictable side-effect broke forwarding and > mailing > > lists. But given a choice between being the cranky old man yelling at > > the cloud and adjusting my mail so it works, I'll take the latter. > > My contention is that we (the ietf) should have done exactly what p=reject > said. They don't want their mail forwarded, we shouldn't forward it. > > That sucks for people who are the product (not customers) of these large > mail > systems, but surely we shouldn't even waste our cranky-old-man time even > listening to such complaints. > > -- > Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > >
- Service outages planned for April 25 Robert Sparks
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- Re: Service outages planned for April 25 tom petch
- Re: Service outages planned for April 25 Jay Daley
- Re: Service outages planned for April 25 Keith Moore
- Re: Service outages planned for April 25 Carsten Bormann
- Re: Service outages planned for April 25 Keith Moore
- Re: Service outages planned for April 25 Carsten Bormann
- Re: Service outages planned for April 25 Keith Moore
- Email and reputation (was Re: Service outages pla… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: Email and reputation (was Re: Service outages… Keith Moore
- Re: Mail is worse than everything except all the … John Levine
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… John Levine
- Re: Mail is worse than everything except all the … Keith Moore
- Re: Mail is worse than everything except all the … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Mail is worse than everything except all the … Keith Moore
- Re: Mail is worse than everything except all the … John R Levine
- Re: Mail is worse than everything except all the … Keith Moore
- Re: Mail is worse than everything except all the … touch@strayalpha.com
- Re: Mail is worse than everything except all the … Keith Moore
- Re: Mail is worse than everything except all the … Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Mail is worse than everything except all the … Keith Moore
- Re: Mail is worse than everything except all the … touch@strayalpha.com
- Re: Mail is worse than everything except all the … Keith Moore
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… John R Levine
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Keith Moore
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Christian Huitema
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Keith Moore
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Keith Moore
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Masataka Ohta
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Keith Moore
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Masataka Ohta
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Keith Moore
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Michael Richardson
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Laurence Lundblade
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Keith Moore
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… John Levine
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
- Re: mail crypto, was the introduction problem, wa… John Levine
- Re: mail crypto, was the introduction problem, wa… Keith Moore
- Re: mail crypto, was the introduction problem, wa… Christopher Morrow
- Re: mail crypto, was the introduction problem, wa… Keith Moore
- Re: mail crypto, was the introduction problem, wa… John Levine
- Re: mail crypto, was the introduction problem, wa… Keith Moore
- Re: mail crypto, was the introduction problem, wa… Christopher Morrow
- Re: mail crypto, was the introduction problem, wa… Keith Moore
- Deployment strategy for email+ Was: Mail is worse… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: mail crypto, was the introduction problem, wa… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… John Levine
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Keith Moore
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… John R Levine
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Masataka Ohta
- Re: the introduction problem, was Email and reput… Masataka Ohta
- Trying to do too much (was Re: the introduction p… Jim Fenton
- Re: Trying to do too much (was Re: the introducti… lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk
- Re: Trying to do too much (was Re: the introducti… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Trying to do too much (was Re: the introducti… Keith Moore
- Re: Trying to do too much (was Re: the introducti… Keith Moore
- Re: Trying to do too much (was Re: the introducti… Michael Richardson
- Re: Trying to do too much (was Re: the introducti… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Trying to do too much (was Re: the introducti… Masataka Ohta
- Re: potable e-mail, now Trying to do too much (wa… John Levine
- Re: Trying to do too much (was Re: the introducti… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Trying to do too much (was Re: the introducti… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: potable e-mail, now Trying to do too much (wa… Michael Richardson
- Re: Trying to do too much (was Re: the introducti… Keith Moore
- Re: portable e-mail, now Trying to do too much (w… John R Levine
- Re: potable e-mail, now Trying to do too much (wa… Keith Moore
- Re: Trying to do too much (was Re: the introducti… Masataka Ohta
- Re: potable e-mail, now Trying to do too much (wa… Masataka Ohta
- Re: portable e-mail, now Trying to do too much (w… Michael Richardson
- Re: portable e-mail, now Trying to do too much (w… John Levine
- Re: portable e-mail, now Trying to do too much (w… Michael Richardson
- We are not a mail forwarding service Carsten Bormann
- Re: We are not a mail forwarding service John R Levine
- ugly hacks (was: Re: We are not a mail forwarding… Keith Moore
- Re: ugly hacks (was: Re: We are not a mail forwar… John Levine
- Re: ugly hacks (was: Re: We are not a mail forwar… Keith Moore
- Re: We are not a mail forwarding service Robert Sparks
- Re: We are not a mail forwarding service Carsten Bormann
- Re: portable e-mail, now Trying to do too much (w… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: potable e-mail, now Trying to do too much (wa… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: portable e-mail, now Trying to do too much (w… Keith Moore
- Re: portable e-mail, now Trying to do too much (w… Phillip Hallam-Baker