Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews]
Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> Thu, 07 November 2019 05:02 UTC
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Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 23:02:22 -0600
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From: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>, Ralph Droms <rdroms.ietf@gmail.com>, Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>, IETF <ietf@ietf.org>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews]
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On Thu, Nov 07, 2019 at 03:25:40PM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 07-Nov-19 14:48, Nico Williams wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 07, 2019 at 11:54:59AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >> Here's a thought experiment. > >> > >> Update the standards process such that the approval of Proposed Standard > >> RFCs, after an IETF last call including some specified cross-area review > >> requirements, is done by the WG consensus process with the consent of the AD . > >> > >> Why would that work? Because it now incents the WG chairs by making them, > >> in effect, where the buck stops. So the WG chairs and AD (typically > >> a committee of three) will feel the obligation to get everything > >> right. And it scales. > > > > So, no more IESG review? What would we need the IESG for anymore? It > > would be gone, I guess? > > Not at all. Firstly, I said *Proposed* Standard. The experiment would leave > the IESG in charge for Internet Standard. (Also for documents submitted > outside the WG process, which is rare of course.) And the criterion is > still IETF rough consensus following an IETF last call. Just trying > to eliminate a manifest bottleneck. When most of our documents are PS -when PS is the new Standard!- this really does mean doing away with IESG review. Nothing obligates anyone to do the work to move PS to DS and then S. > Secondly, they'd still be the authority for chartering, appointing > WG chairs, appointing directorates, and other aspects of overseeing > the process. Most of the duties described in RFC 2026 in fact. Sure, but picking good chairs now becomes essential, but finding chairs as good as ADs will be difficult. > > Sure, it will scale better. But quality will suffer. > > And maybe some documents will spend fewer than, say, 2 years in MISSREF. > Speed vs quality is indeed a trade-off. In the era of rapid prototyping > our timescale really looks pretty stupid. Perhaps so. But then we'd better find a way to incentivize moving PS docs to DS and S, or give up the fiction. > >> [...]. So the WG chairs and AD (typically a committee of three) [...] > > > > Typically one of the ADs is uninvolved with a WG for which the other is > > responsible, so that would be a committee of two, not three. > > Two WG chairs is almost the norm these days. But yes, the essence of > the experiment is to reduce the number of people in the decision > process - and intentionally lower the bar for Proposed Standard closer > to how it's defined in RFC2026: > A Proposed Standard specification is generally stable, has resolved > known design choices, is believed to be well-understood, has received > significant community review, and appears to enjoy enough community > interest to be considered valuable. However, further experience > might result in a change or even retraction of the specification > before it advances. > When I look at some the DISCUSSes I've seen in recent months, I really > don't think that definition is being applied. That's a fair observation. But, too, we could ask the IESG to take a lighter approach to publication as PS. > I would also add to my thought experiment a mandatory Implementation > Status section. That's stronger than RFC2026. Implementation Status for PS? But that will drag us into the I-D stability thread all over again -- it's a catch-22: how can we develop a protocol, implement it, and test it but not deploy it (despite a very strong market desire for it) without some sort of I-D stability mechanism? Nico --
- NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback NomCom Chair 2019
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Stewart Bryant
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Kyle Rose
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Paul Wouters
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Livingood, Jason
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Randy Bush
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Yoav Nir
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Stephen Farrell
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Brian E Carpenter
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Stephen Farrell
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Brian E Carpenter
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Kyle Rose
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Keith Moore
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Tim Wicinski
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Rob Sayre
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Bob Hinden
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Donald Eastlake
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Keith Moore
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback John Levine
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Stewart Bryant
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Michael Richardson
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Kyle Rose
- AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Communi… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Mark Nottingham
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Rob Sayre
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Terry Manderson
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Salz, Rich
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Keith Moore
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Leif Johansson
- Quality of Directorate reviews Alexey Melnikov
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Ralph Droms
- RE: Quality of Directorate reviews Rob Wilton (rwilton)
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Alexey Melnikov
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Stewart Bryant
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Salz, Rich
- RE: Quality of Directorate reviews Paul Wouters
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Carsten Bormann
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Ralph Droms
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Keith Moore
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Ralph Droms
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Keith Moore
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Stewart Bryant
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Bob Hinden
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Bob Hinden
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Salz, Rich
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Bob Hinden
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Jared Mauch
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Salz, Rich
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Stewart Bryant
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Leif Johansson
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Salz, Rich
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Salz, Rich
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Leif Johansson
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Leif Johansson
- Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate re… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Keith Moore
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Nico Williams
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Nico Williams
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Leif Johansson
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Bob Hinden
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Bob Hinden
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… tom petch
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Stewart Bryant
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Nico Williams
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Nico Williams
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Michael Richardson
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Michael Richardson
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Michael Richardson
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Nico Williams
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Michael Richardson
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Salz, Rich
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Michael Richardson
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Michael Richardson
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Michael Richardson
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Michael Richardson
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Bob Hinden
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Nico Williams
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Nico Williams
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Nico Williams
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Christian Huitema
- Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: Thou… Jari Arkko
- Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: … Keith Moore
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Eliot Lear
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Ole Troan
- Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: … John C Klensin
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Salz, Rich
- Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: … Michael Richardson
- Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: … Andrew G. Malis
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Bob Hinden
- Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: … Keith Moore
- Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: … Michael Richardson
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback John Leslie
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Keith Moore
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Michael Richardson
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Keith Moore
- Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: … John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Mary B
- Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: … Carsten Bormann
- Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: … Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Keith Moore
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Julian Reschke
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Keith Moore
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Mark Nottingham