RE: Old directions in social media.

ned+ietf@mauve.mrochek.com Fri, 08 January 2021 17:43 UTC

Return-Path: <ned+ietf@mauve.mrochek.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C37443A1189 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 8 Jan 2021 09:43:42 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.899
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V1q-m9UBj4Mj for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 8 Jan 2021 09:43:41 -0800 (PST)
Received: from plum.mrochek.com (plum.mrochek.com [172.95.64.195]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEEDF3A1188 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Fri, 8 Jan 2021 09:43:36 -0800 (PST)
Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01RU4QM50SS000B8AU@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf@ietf.org; Fri, 8 Jan 2021 09:38:34 -0800 (PST)
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET="US-ASCII"
Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01RTUUND7D1S004QVR@mauve.mrochek.com> (original mail from NED@mauve.mrochek.com) for ietf@ietf.org; Fri, 8 Jan 2021 09:38:31 -0800 (PST)
From: ned+ietf@mauve.mrochek.com
Cc: Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>
Message-id: <01RU4QM34GP4004QVR@mauve.mrochek.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2021 09:18:49 -0800
Subject: RE: Old directions in social media.
In-reply-to: "Your message dated Fri, 08 Jan 2021 12:28:34 +0000" <AM0PR08MB3716E884A0BF30D161E26750FAAE0@AM0PR08MB3716.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAMm+Lwg1-pxKU8vMinFDUbVca52VgFzTOOSJMnJjaUJvF6PLew@mail.gmail.com> <062d01d6e387$39c46270$ad4d2750$@acm.org> <CAJU8_nWD3MwLs5aVNMi_3LqZysrfjv0N7N3ujV-zhqxiFh3tsA@mail.gmail.com> <788651ca-0c84-7a54-9c48-b962faed635f@network-heretics.com> <CAJU8_nXSE-E2AVrJnqe5ZifR+qGhXscNCFXQRDj_GU1r=hNOyw@mail.gmail.com> <70416f47-7c31-8571-02ce-f95ff386d54f@network-heretics.com> <X/TtgTtl02AMyns8@mit.edu> <AM0PR08MB371623409DE8AB03CC667234FAD00@AM0PR08MB3716.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> <866b1357-ec50-7765-4277-fd4fba8d793e@network-heretics.com> <AM0PR08MB37166B8E57C293917737D9D6FAD00@AM0PR08MB3716.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> <d8454121-f6fb-3cbb-3149-656e20efce96@joelhalpern.com> <AM0PR08MB3716C960817BCCFEE4F9F911FAAF0@AM0PR08MB3716.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> <edf8225b-d005-4f99-b96f-41bc49633da3@joelhalpern.com> <AM0PR08MB37169778B08F3F83413194B0FAAF0@AM0PR08MB3716.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> <01RU3E1RGXW4004QVR@mauve.mrochek.com> <e3b4e262-9d4d-2c5c-5588-67d37d8cedc4@mtcc.com> <AM0PR08MB3716E884A0BF30D161E26750FAAE0@AM0PR08MB3716.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/w8BwvQhlFbVHPjq7ipNLLTXKKA4>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2021 17:43:43 -0000

> On 1/7/21 9:27 AM, ned+ietf@mauve.mrochek.com wrote:
> > Speaking as 30 year IETF participant, including four years as an apps
> > AD and many stints as a WG chair, this is not now and has never been
> > my experience. I could not even begin count the number of times I've
> > had to review mailing list discussions as part of reviewing a draft.

> If the document you are supposed to be reviewing does not give enough context
> so that you have to review the mailing list discussions then there is clearly
> something wrong with the document.

> That should have been your review comment.

And in those cases where a choice made in the document doesn't quite jibe with
your memory of what transpired in a meeting... which may be wrong... but you
weren't on the list so don't know what went down later.. what then?

Or when some text in a document published long ago and now being revised
doesn't line up with operational practice you've seen, and you need to know the
WG's reasoning for the choice, or for that matter whether they were even aware
at the time that the alternate practice existed?

Or any of a thousand other variations and permutations that can occur along the
often highly nonlinear paths our documents often take? 

Or are you seriously suggesting that all of the discussions leading to every
design choice, discussions which for the most trivial of matters can run into
dozens of messages and thousands of words, should be faithfully captured in the
document itself?

And with this, I'm done. You are clearly operating in some other reality than
the one I occupy, and I have no more time to waste trying to understand it.

				Ned