Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FTP Service
Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> Tue, 17 November 2020 05:42 UTC
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Subject: Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FTP Service
To: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>, ietf@ietf.org
References: <af6ab231024c478bbd28bbec0f9c69c9@cert.org> <0D41F3FD-BA1F-4716-A165-4FE7529431A9@vigilsec.com> <D26DCBB6-3997-4A73-BB46-867B4FD79BD2@eggert.org> <27b80ed2-76fb-aee7-f22d-de56019e9aa9@nostrum.com> <a8bdd67a-13ea-4433-aa38-9cfd48ea28da@network-heretics.com> <0e875497-9986-a0d9-8354-3eac26b7f882@nostrum.com>
From: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
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Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 00:42:08 -0500
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On 11/16/20 5:15 PM, Adam Roach wrote: >>> In the analysis, I think there are two costs to consider and one >>> benefit. The benefit of leaving it online, of course, is that some >>> small group of users still find utility in FTP. >> >> IMO that misstates the benefit. A stable service can have a large >> (and long-term) benefit even if only a few clients at a time use it. > > Only read in a vacuum. If you read further, I argue for the stable > interfaces you want. Ok, so why not use an existing interface that has proven to be stable through decades of use, instead of one that _might_ be stable in the future? > I believe that your objections (here and elsewhere) mentioning "user > interface" conflate HTTP (transport) with HTML (markup), and mixing > user interface into the RFCs isn't a foregone conclusion: the > requirement you have of not mixing display in with documents is why I > suggest that raw versions be made available. Sorry if I wasn't clear, but that was not my concern. My concern is that the web interface taken as a whole (including not only the RFCs themselves but also any browsers, HTML, JS, CSS, fonts, etc. that are used to make up the entire user interface) are all optimized for one kind of user experience, and NOT for use as an API to be used by programs. So if someone later decides to rearrange or otherwise alter the RFCs, or reconfigure servers, or whatever, in order to improve user experience, that will be seen as the Right Thing to do regardless of any concerns that people might have about the API changing. I would argue that that's really the argument in favor of deprecating FTP that we are seeing now - that the stable API for accessing RFCs is irrelevant, because it's only the user experience via the web that matters. And I do have a big problem with that. It has been claimed that the use of FTP constrains file system layout, but it's mostly the API that constrains the file system layout. > And I even argue for making the filesystem mountable like you > requested, even if I consider that use case to be a bit baroque. With FTP, I can mount the RFCs as a file system this very minute (as I just did) and treat those RFCs as local files (say by grepping through them, as I just did). With FTP it's unambiguous as to how to do this and the code to do this has existed for many platforms for many years. With WebDAV, this is also possible, but at the cost of ALL current users having to retool. And I have no idea how widely WebDAV is supported - though I did verify that a FUSE interface to it exists for Linux. (I don't personally consider remote file system access to be baroque at all; to me it seems relatively straightforward and much easier to use in some ways than a web service. For instance, I can very easily download, or print, multiple RFCs in one command, without having to click on each link separately, specify its download directory and file name, etc. This works because FTP always was quite clearly a protocol for accessing files on disk. ) > I'm sympathetic to the position that all change can be disruptive, and > I understand that you know how FTP works and are comfortable with it. > At the same time, I'm not yet seeing any requirements that you've put > forth that can't be met pretty trivially with HTTP, other than an > inferred bedrock requirement of "this must not change at all." I believe change to long-valuable services needs to be justified, and not made merely out of a desire to be in fashion. I never have stated a position that all change can be disruptive. I suspect that's true as a generalization, but I'm certainly not arguing that nothing should ever change. I'm talking specifically about a single service here. But there really should be a good reason to make such a change. I have run FTP servers before; they're not much trouble. (another advantage of using a stable protocol). Taken both client and server overhead into account, I see less overhead associated with continued use of FTP, than with WebDAV. It's possible that there's even more opex on the server side using WebDAV, as the arguments that have been cited as detriments to continuing FTP might also apply to WebDAV support. One thing that might make me change my mind might be if WebDAV were considerably more efficient or more functional. That is possible. HTTP/webdav should require less TCP setup overhead, and does offer the potential for seek/read capability using byte ranges. Another thing that might make me reconsider is if IETF wished to host its servers in some sort of dysfunctional cloud environment (probably using NAT within the cloud) that didn't support FTP's use of ports. But I think PASV should still work and it's pretty much the default these days anyway. > I get it. It's annoying when a technology we like falls by the wayside. FTP hasn't fallen by the wayside. I suspect what's happened instead is this: There are people who think that the way /they/ use computers is the way /everyone/ should use computers. And if so, I think they should reexamine their assumptions. > YMMV, of course, but I encourage you to reflect a bit more on how much > of your reaction is pushback on any change at all versus actually > losing the ability to do what you want to do. I think you're reading between the lines far more than is intended or warranted. Keith p.s. we could have set up the server in far less time than it has taken to write these messages.
- Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FTP Se… Roman Danyliw
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… George Michaelson
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Lou Berger
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… John C Klensin
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Masataka Ohta
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… John Levine
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… John Levine
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Salz, Rich
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Toerless Eckert
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Toerless Eckert
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Masataka Ohta
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Larry Masinter
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Loa Andersson
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Töma Gavrichenkov
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Larry Masinter
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… John Levine
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Donald Eastlake
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… John R Levine
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… John Levine
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… John Levine
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Russ Housley
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Lars Eggert
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Larry Masinter
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Salz, Rich
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Adam Roach
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Adam Roach
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Robert Moskowitz
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Daniel Migault
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… John Levine
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Robert Sparks
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Adam Roach
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Sean Turner
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Jared Mauch
- AW: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… N.Leymann
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… ned+ietf
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Livingood, Jason
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Livingood, Jason
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Adam Roach
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… ned+ietf
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Adam Roach
- FTP, GOPHER and TCP to historic? (Re: Call for Co… Jared Mauch
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Jared Mauch
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: FTP, GOPHER and TCP to historic? (Re: Call fo… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Theodore Y. Ts'o
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Livingood, Jason
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Livingood, Jason
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- HTTP vs. HTTPS (was: Re: Call for Community Feedb… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: HTTP vs. HTTPS Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Julian Reschke
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Julian Reschke
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Rob Wilton (rwilton)
- Re: not a reason, Call for Community Feedback: Re… John Levine
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Robert Moskowitz
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Robert Moskowitz
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Robert Moskowitz
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Robert Moskowitz
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Robert Moskowitz
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Adam Roach
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… ned+ietf
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Robert Moskowitz
- Re: HTTP vs. HTTPS (was: Re: Call for Community F… Robert Moskowitz
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Robert Moskowitz
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Adam Roach
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Robert Moskowitz
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Adam Roach
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Robert Moskowitz
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Theodore Y. Ts'o
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Theodore Y. Ts'o
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Michael Thomas
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: not a reason, Call for Community Feedback: Re… Keith Moore
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Robert Moskowitz
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Nick Hilliard
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Lou Berger
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Livingood, Jason
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… ned+ietf
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Stewart Bryant
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… John Levine
- Re: mail signing history, was Call for Community … John Levine
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- Re: mail signing history, was Call for Community … John Levine
- Re: mail signing history, was Call for Community … ned+ietf
- Re: mail signing history, was Call for Community … Michael Thomas
- Re: mail signing history, was Call for Community … John R Levine
- Re: mail signing history, was Call for Community … Michael Thomas
- Re: mail signing history, was Call for Community … Michael Thomas
- Re: mail signing history, was Call for Community … Stephen Farrell
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: mail signing history, was Call for Community … Michael Thomas
- Re: mail signing history, was Call for Community … Stephen Farrell
- Re: mail signing history, was Call for Community … Stephen Farrell
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… John E Drake
- Re: mail signing history, was Call for Community … Michael Thomas
- Re: mail signing history, was Call for Community … Michael Thomas
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: mail signing history, was Call for Community … Stephen Farrell
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: mail signing history, was Call for Community … Michael Thomas
- Re: mail signing history, was Call for Community … Michael Thomas
- Re: mail signing history, was Call for Community … Stephen Farrell
- Re: mail signing history, was Call for Community … Michael Thomas
- Re: mail signing history, was Call for Community … Stephen Farrell
- Re: mail signing history, was Call for Community … ned+ietf
- Re: mail signing history, was Call for Community … Michael Thomas
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Julian Reschke
- TLS access Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retir… tom petch
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Julian Reschke
- RE: TLS access Re: Call for Community Feedback: R… Roman Danyliw
- Re: mail signing history, was Call for Community … Michael Thomas
- Re: TLS access Re: Call for Community Feedback: R… Salz, Rich
- Re: mail signing history, was Call for Community … Keith Moore
- Re: TLS access Re: Call for Community Feedback: R… ned+ietf
- Re: mail signing history, was Call for Community … Michael Thomas
- Re: mail signing history, was Call for Community … Michael Thomas
- Re: mail signing history, was Call for Community … John Levine
- Re: mail signing history, was Call for Community … Michael Thomas
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- RE: TLS access Re: Call for Community Feedback: R… Roman Danyliw
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Chris Inacio
- Re: TLS access Re: Call for Community Feedback: R… Salz, Rich
- Re: TLS access Re: Call for Community Feedback: R… Keith Moore
- Re: TLS access Re: Call for Community Feedback: R… tom petch
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: TLS access Re: Call for Community Feedback: R… Russ Housley
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Cullen Jennings
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… John C Klensin
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Peter Yee
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Joseph Salowey
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Lyndon Nerenberg
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… John C Klensin
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… John C Klensin
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… John Levine
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Nick Hilliard
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Lyndon Nerenberg
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Nick Hilliard
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Nick Hilliard
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… John Levine
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… John C Klensin
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Carsten Bormann
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Masataka Ohta
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… John C Klensin
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Dave Cridland
- Re: what is rsync, was Call for Community Feedbac… John Levine
- rsync (Was: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring… Job Snijders
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… John C Klensin
- Re: rsync (Was: Call for Community Feedback: Reti… John C Klensin
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Salz, Rich
- Re: what is rsync, was Call for Community Feedbac… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Rich Kulawiec
- On the costs of old systems (was Re: Call for Com… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: On the costs of old systems (was Re: Call for… Keith Moore
- Re: what is rsync, was Call for Community Feedbac… John C Klensin
- documenting rsync, or, what are we here for anywa… Keith Moore
- Re: documenting rsync, or, what are we here for a… Dave Cridland
- Re: what is rsync, was Call for Community Feedbac… tom petch
- Re: documenting rsync, or, what are we here for a… John Levine
- Re: documenting rsync, or, what are we here for a… Joseph Touch
- Re: documenting rsync, or, what are we here for a… Salz, Rich
- Re: documenting rsync, or, what are we here for a… Joseph Touch
- Re: documenting rsync, or, what are we here for a… Salz, Rich
- Re: documenting rsync, or, what are we here for a… Keith Moore
- Re: documenting rsync, or, what are we here for a… John Levine
- Re: documenting rsync, or, what are we here for a… Joseph Touch
- Re: documenting rsync, or, what are we here for a… Joseph Touch
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… tom petch
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Julian Reschke
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Salz, Rich
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… John C Klensin
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… John C Klensin
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Carsten Bormann
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: postscript vs PDF, Call for Community Feedbac… John Levine
- Re: postscript vs PDF, Call for Community Feedbac… John C Klensin
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Julian Reschke
- Re: postscript vs PDF, Call for Community Feedbac… John Levine
- Re: postscript vs PDF, Call for Community Feedbac… Carsten Bormann
- Re: postscript vs PDF, Call for Community Feedbac… John C Klensin
- Re: postscript vs PDF, Call for Community Feedbac… Larry Masinter
- Re: On the costs of old systems (was Re: Call for… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: On the costs of old systems (was Re: Call for… Masataka Ohta
- Re: On the costs of old systems (was Re: Call for… Salz, Rich
- Re: what is rsync, was Call for Community Feedbac… George Michaelson
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… tom petch
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… tom petch
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Julian Reschke
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… tom petch
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… tom petch
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Carsten Bormann
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Julian Reschke
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… ned+ietf
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… ned+ietf
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Julian Reschke
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: what is rsync, was Call for Community Feedbac… Christopher Morrow
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Larry Masinter
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… ned+ietf
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Larry Masinter
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Salz, Rich
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Larry Masinter
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… tom petch
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Larry Masinter
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Theodore Y. Ts'o
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Julian Reschke
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… tom petch
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Julian Reschke
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… tom petch
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Julian Reschke
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… tom petch
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Julian Reschke
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… tom petch
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Christian Huitema
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Julian Reschke
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Julian Reschke
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Michael Tuexen
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Julian Reschke
- Re: When all you have is a hammer, everything loo… John Levine
- Bootstrapping the internet (Re: When all you have… Jared Mauch
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… ned+ietf
- Re: Bootstrapping the internet (Re: When all you … Greg Shepherd
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Julian Reschke
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Julian Reschke
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: When all you have is a hammer, everything loo… John C Klensin
- Re: Bootstrapping the internet (Re: When all you … Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Adam Roach
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… tom petch
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Julian Reschke
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Greg Skinner
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Tim Chown
- Re: On the costs of old systems (was Re: Call for… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Nick Hilliard
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Martin Duke
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… John C Klensin
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Adam Roach
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Keith Moore
- Re: On the costs of old systems (was Re: Call for… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- RE: TLS access Re: Call for Community Feedback: R… Roman Danyliw
- Re: TLS access Re: Call for Community Feedback: R… Michael Richardson
- RE: TLS access Re: Call for Community Feedback: R… Roman Danyliw
- Re: TLS access Re: Call for Community Feedback: R… Keith Moore
- Re: TLS access Re: Call for Community Feedback: R… Keith Moore
- RE: TLS access Re: Call for Community Feedback: R… Roman Danyliw
- RE: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Roman Danyliw
- Re: TLS access Re: Call for Community Feedback: R… Keith Moore
- Re: TLS access Re: Call for Community Feedback: R… tom petch
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… John Levine
- Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FT… Carsten Bormann