Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members

Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> Tue, 19 November 2019 08:59 UTC

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Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members
From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
In-Reply-To: <0F893F23-FDEF-45F0-9A5B-839A1E4DB0E8@consulintel.es>
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 16:59:43 +0800
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References: <CALaySJJN23vFf-k2VqU0Mx+sOWV8wJiTBBkDGopjK7vOtYyDyA@mail.gmail.com> <0F893F23-FDEF-45F0-9A5B-839A1E4DB0E8@consulintel.es>
To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet=40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org>
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I suspect part of the issue here is that the letter is signed *only* by IAB members, not mixed with others - and so I agree that such a clarification would have been helpful.

Question: Would people have felt such a clarification were necessary if it these names were mixed in with non-IAB (and non-IETF) names and affiliations?

And, would people have had an issue if it were signed only by one person who used their affiliation (as a *member* of the IAB, not the whole)?

To put it another way -- sometimes I give talks and mention that I'm a member of the IAB, and sometimes I omit other affiliations that I hold or have held (for example, it's rare that I need to trot out that I served as president of my local primary school for several years). Are people seriously suggesting that this is out of line?

Cheers,


> On 19 Nov 2019, at 4:48 pm, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet=40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
> 
> While I believe that anyone has the right to state his position at any organization, never mind is paid or not (unless a contractual clause disallows that), I think that when it is not an official position of that organization, it should be done stating clearly "that is a personal opinion".
> 
> Something in the line of a footnote clearly indicating that this letter is not the "official position of the IAB" (for this specific case).
> 
> Otherwise, tomorrow, a few of us can sign a similar letter showing below our names "Member, IETF", and who is reading it, probably will not recognize that we aren't "empowered" to sign as IETF, as we are just a bunch of participants, but not speaking from the IETF.
> 
> And so, clearly agree with Barry here.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Jordi
> @jordipalet
> 
> 
> 
> El 19/11/19 14:42, "ietf en nombre de Barry Leiba" <ietf-bounces@ietf.org en nombre de barryleiba@computer.org> escribió:
> 
>    Perhaps some of you have seen that Ted Hardie posted an open letter on
>    the Hong Kong high court’s injunction on Internet speech:
>    https://medium.com/@ted.ietf/an-open-letter-on-the-hong-kong-high-court-injunction-on-internet-speech-7f0048df2f54
>    The letter is signed by Ted and is co-signed by three other IAB
>    members, each signing as an individual: the letter is not from the IAB
>    and doesn’t claim to be.
> 
>    Nevertheless, note that all signatories identify themselves as
>    “Member, Internet Architecture Board”, and three of the four do not
>    list their company affiliations.  This has two effects:
> 
>    1. By being signed by four IAB members who are identified primarily as
>    IAB members, the letter *appears* to be from the IAB.  I have passed
>    this by three non-IETF friends, asking them who they think the letter
>    is from, and all three said, “The Internet Architecture Board.”
> 
>    2. By using “Member, Internet Architecture Board” this way, those
>    signing the letter are effectively (whether by intent or not) using
>    their IAB positions to gain credibility for their personal opinions.
> 
>    I think this is wildly inappropriate.  I think those of us in IETF
>    leadership should be scrupulously careful NOT to call out our IETF
>    affiliations this way unless we are speaking for the organization.
>    The fact that the letter refers to things that have been published
>    with IAB consensus doesn’t change the fact that the *letter* does not
>    have IAB consensus, and we must be careful not to give the impression
>    that it does.
> 
>    I’ve discussed this with Ted, who thinks that there’s nothing wrong
>    with how the letter was signed and posted.  That disturbs me.  I tried
>    to let it go, but I’m sufficiently bothered by it that I felt the need
>    to take it to the community.  This is that.  Ted tells me that all IAB
>    members were invited to co-sign the letter, and that none brought up a
>    concern about the use of the “Member, IAB” affiliation.
> 
>    As you think about this and — I hope — discuss it, please keep this in mind:
> 
>    - I’m NOT talking about the content of the message and whether I do or
>    don’t agree with it.  That’s not the point.  I hope that as we discuss
>    this we do NOT go into the content, the politics, and so on.  Let’s
>    please keep this highly charged issue out of IETF discussions.
> 
>    - I’m NOT looking to beat Ted up here; what I want is for this not to
>    happen again, and I hope the ensuing discussion supports that.
> 
>    -- 
>    Barry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/