Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews]
Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Thu, 07 November 2019 02:25 UTC
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Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews]
To: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
Cc: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>, Ralph Droms <rdroms.ietf@gmail.com>, Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>, IETF <ietf@ietf.org>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <57465486-71b1-a87a-fa8c-bad7157f9025@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 15:25:40 +1300
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On 07-Nov-19 14:48, Nico Williams wrote: > On Thu, Nov 07, 2019 at 11:54:59AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> Here's a thought experiment. >> >> Update the standards process such that the approval of Proposed Standard >> RFCs, after an IETF last call including some specified cross-area review >> requirements, is done by the WG consensus process with the consent of the AD . >> >> Why would that work? Because it now incents the WG chairs by making them, >> in effect, where the buck stops. So the WG chairs and AD (typically >> a committee of three) will feel the obligation to get everything >> right. And it scales. > > So, no more IESG review? What would we need the IESG for anymore? It > would be gone, I guess? Not at all. Firstly, I said *Proposed* Standard. The experiment would leave the IESG in charge for Internet Standard. (Also for documents submitted outside the WG process, which is rare of course.) And the criterion is still IETF rough consensus following an IETF last call. Just trying to eliminate a manifest bottleneck. Secondly, they'd still be the authority for chartering, appointing WG chairs, appointing directorates, and other aspects of overseeing the process. Most of the duties described in RFC 2026 in fact. > Sure, it will scale better. But quality will suffer. And maybe some documents will spend fewer than, say, 2 years in MISSREF. Speed vs quality is indeed a trade-off. In the era of rapid prototyping our timescale really looks pretty stupid. >> [...]. So the WG chairs and AD (typically a committee of three) [...] > > Typically one of the ADs is uninvolved with a WG for which the other is > responsible, so that would be a committee of two, not three. Two WG chairs is almost the norm these days. But yes, the essence of the experiment is to reduce the number of people in the decision process - and intentionally lower the bar for Proposed Standard closer to how it's defined in RFC2026: A Proposed Standard specification is generally stable, has resolved known design choices, is believed to be well-understood, has received significant community review, and appears to enjoy enough community interest to be considered valuable. However, further experience might result in a change or even retraction of the specification before it advances. When I look at some the DISCUSSes I've seen in recent months, I really don't think that definition is being applied. I would also add to my thought experiment a mandatory Implementation Status section. That's stronger than RFC2026. Brian
- NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback NomCom Chair 2019
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Stewart Bryant
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Kyle Rose
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Paul Wouters
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Livingood, Jason
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Randy Bush
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Yoav Nir
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Stephen Farrell
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Brian E Carpenter
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Stephen Farrell
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Brian E Carpenter
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Kyle Rose
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Keith Moore
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Tim Wicinski
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Rob Sayre
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Bob Hinden
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Donald Eastlake
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Keith Moore
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback John Levine
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Stewart Bryant
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Michael Richardson
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Kyle Rose
- AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Communi… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Mark Nottingham
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Rob Sayre
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Terry Manderson
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Salz, Rich
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Keith Moore
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Leif Johansson
- Quality of Directorate reviews Alexey Melnikov
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Ralph Droms
- RE: Quality of Directorate reviews Rob Wilton (rwilton)
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Alexey Melnikov
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Stewart Bryant
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Salz, Rich
- RE: Quality of Directorate reviews Paul Wouters
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Carsten Bormann
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Ralph Droms
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Keith Moore
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Ralph Droms
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Keith Moore
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Stewart Bryant
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Bob Hinden
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Bob Hinden
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Salz, Rich
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Bob Hinden
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Jared Mauch
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Salz, Rich
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Stewart Bryant
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Leif Johansson
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Salz, Rich
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Salz, Rich
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Leif Johansson
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Leif Johansson
- Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate re… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Keith Moore
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Nico Williams
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Nico Williams
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Leif Johansson
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Bob Hinden
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Bob Hinden
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… tom petch
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Stewart Bryant
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Nico Williams
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Nico Williams
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Michael Richardson
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Michael Richardson
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Michael Richardson
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Nico Williams
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Michael Richardson
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Salz, Rich
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Michael Richardson
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Michael Richardson
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Michael Richardson
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Michael Richardson
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Bob Hinden
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Nico Williams
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Nico Williams
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Nico Williams
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Christian Huitema
- Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: Thou… Jari Arkko
- Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: … Keith Moore
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Eliot Lear
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Ole Troan
- Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: … John C Klensin
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Salz, Rich
- Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: … Michael Richardson
- Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: … Andrew G. Malis
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Bob Hinden
- Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: … Keith Moore
- Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: … Michael Richardson
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback John Leslie
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Keith Moore
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Michael Richardson
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Keith Moore
- Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: … John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Mary B
- Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: … Carsten Bormann
- Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: … Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Keith Moore
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Julian Reschke
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Keith Moore
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Mark Nottingham