Re: Sergeant-at-arms engagement model

[Michael StJohns <[e-mail]>]

On 10/11/2019 12:31 PM, Rob Sayre wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 10:54 PM Eric Rescorla <[e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>
>
>     I see that there are a bunch of open issues in the "Unprofessional
>     Commentary" definition. Can you say more about how you plan to
>     evolve that?
>
>
> Yeah, the Github page contains a circular definition (one instance 
> of "Unprofessional Commentary" is "Unprofessional Commentary"...)
>
> What are the boundaries around raising issues that are sure to offend 
> some set of people? For example, the IETF's use of Github might be 
> objectionable to some:
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-10/microsoft-employees-call-to-end-github-ice-contract
>
> I think the rules are pretty clear when someone is spamming / swearing 
> / etc.
>
> thanks,
> Rob

  Please see my commentary on "respectful" "professional" and 
"considerate" at the end of 
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/2KfRrnvmpra7BDKICXsfQW1G7Rk 
as well as my comments on SAA do's and don'ts at 
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/pKBtsdVwLY3k8dkml3Wy3oANAJU. 
You've addressed only 1 of my 9 points (#2)

One of the issues we keep having is what are the  boundaries of 
basically ... (*sigh* translating to PC - it's hard to give up idioms 
that have been OK for most of my life ) calling a particular garden tool 
what is is rather than calling it a shovel.

Is a truthful statement "unprofessional" in the "profession" of the 
IETF? (cf our recent discussions on tone policing for the wide range of 
thoughts on this).

I'd like to see something like

>   Lying, being disingenuous,
> deflecting, distracting, ignoring are unprofessional; calling out lying,
> disingenuousness, deflection, distraction, and ignoring when there is
> substantial indication of one of these is not only not unprofessional,
> but required in a consensus based community for the community to
> continue to operate.

Entered into the discussion of what's unprofessional.

Lastly, I'd strongly recommend that the SAA be divorced from the Chair 
similar to the way that the Ombudsteam is.  E.g. chair appoints, SAA 
acts on their own without chair input.  Chair can replace at any time.   
Larger team than is currently there and works with the ombudsteam to 
resolve issues at dispute between the community (e.g. not just one 
person pushing back) and the SAA team.

Later, Mike