Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or not (was: Last Call: <draft-eggert-bcp45bis-06.txt> (IETF Discussion List Charter) to Best Current Practice)
S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com> Fri, 05 November 2021 18:00 UTC
Return-Path: <sm@elandsys.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 883D53A131B for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 11:00:09 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.697
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.697 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aX57FZH_2mEb for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 11:00:05 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0F3D3A12FF for <ietf@ietf.org>; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 11:00:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.116.113.207]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 1A4NeVmN009787 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 4 Nov 2021 16:40:43 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1636069244; x=1636155644; i=@elandsys.com; bh=ZZmp8TOSmP9YlLGsBtUhYpAfPBw0kUVl6Aig11UkIjg=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=NBiDIlXqMaJGE+mwjM+xQDH1M7A5Tf2iRzYQLiFOCHdYHWMB4JhWnQuBPBa6hKqCX 2o+29T5ZYTm/L4mqml5mKlO7I1j6OWPC5C1RNYAmTcUWjEpRDJ1D4KsD0GdQduDV19 Ss4JzwT2MHcS9Zox5ESiIPjLXRY/pLX3lIkskMeo=
Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20211104154153.15771868@elandnews.com>
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 16:39:29 -0700
To: Bron Gondwana <brong@fastmailteam.com>, ietf@ietf.org
From: S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>
Subject: Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or not (was: Last Call: <draft-eggert-bcp45bis-06.txt> (IETF Discussion List Charter) to Best Current Practice)
In-Reply-To: <46d3c3ed-8e92-4a35-a546-a6c8bdf0bbee@dogfood.fastmail.com>
References: <163465875866.13316.15860075014903480611@ietfa.amsl.com> <EA85619D-83D6-409B-AAE7-C13850B18BA0@yahoo.co.uk> <CALaySJKeHDr7EJy4hf5GyS9W0PwpQ0C05TGtS4Gc_ihEFeQtsA@mail.gmail.com> <34ec2302-edc3-e180-be00-4d7200372d5f@network-heretics.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20211030023629.075c8550@elandnews.com> <47db1859-8201-9f37-0efd-aa09f4b1379b@network-heretics.com> <0F85A716-1371-4222-9DAE-23CCBD6E5382@ietf.org> <2bbef9bf-04b7-1862-5334-55aa1ee2ae43@cs.tcd.ie> <CAMm+LwiWaPbe59NE1qtbZ0uc-_NqCCA2=ReciJokt53-RoHQLA@mail.gmail.com> <a4fbed09-258d-5e80-5fa1-c7b9851bac3d@network-heretics.com> <46d3c3ed-8e92-4a35-a546-a6c8bdf0bbee@dogfood.fastmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/yTWOaN1z14Jys_yVdSuUSjW5ido>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 18:00:10 -0000
At 02:55 PM 04-11-2021, Bron Gondwana wrote: >So back to the topic: > >What can we do here? We need to find SOME wording that gives a (to >use a sports metaphor) "play the ball, not the player" - and have a >SAA who can give you a timeout if you start kicking a player rather >than kicking the ball. > >I'm not sure I'm seeing an answer in this thread yet which compels >me more than "unprofessional" or "uncivil". Is there a word for >"focusing on a proxy for the issue rather than the actual issue", or >"repeating the same thing over and over without listening to, or by >mis-characterising, responses" because that's often what I see >underlying poor behaviour on our IETF lists, and we do need some >boundary on what's allowed. Sometimes, a message about "conduct" is sent to a mailing list to ask each side to pause the discussion instead of pushing for an opinion which is completely at odds with the other side. The actual issue is mistrust. Regards, S. Moonesamy
- Re: [Gendispatch] Last Call: <draft-eggert-bcp45b… Lloyd W
- Re: [Gendispatch] Last Call: <draft-eggert-bcp45b… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Last Call: <draft-eggert-bcp45b… Barry Leiba
- Re: [Gendispatch] Last Call: <draft-eggert-bcp45b… Bron Gondwana
- RE: [Gendispatch] Last Call: <draft-eggert-bcp45b… STARK, BARBARA H
- Describing which behavior is appropriate or not (… S Moonesamy
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… Keith Moore
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… Lloyd W
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… Lloyd W
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… Keith Moore
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… Sander Steffann
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… S Moonesamy
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… Keith Moore
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… Lloyd W
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… Keith Moore
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… Lloyd W
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… Keith Moore
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… Miles Fidelman
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… S Moonesamy
- "professional" in an IETF context Keith Moore
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… S Moonesamy
- Re: "professional" in an IETF context Brian E Carpenter
- Re: "professional" in an IETF context Keith Moore
- Re: "professional" in an IETF context Stephen Farrell
- Re: "professional" in an IETF context David Farmer
- RE: "professional" in an IETF context Andrew Campling
- Re: "professional" in an IETF context Keith Moore
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… Jay Daley
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… Stephen Farrell
- RE: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: "professional" in an IETF context Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: "professional" in an IETF context Masataka Ohta
- Re: "professional" in an IETF context Miles Fidelman
- Re: "professional" in an IETF context Miles Fidelman
- Re: "professional" in an IETF context Masataka Ohta
- Re: "professional" in an IETF context Joel M. Halpern
- Re: "professional" in an IETF context Masataka Ohta
- Re: "professional" in an IETF context Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: "professional" in an IETF context Stewart Bryant
- Re: "professional" in an IETF context Keith Moore
- Re: "professional" in an IETF context Keith Moore
- Re: "professional" in an IETF context Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: "professional" in an IETF context Miles Fidelman
- Re: "professional" in an IETF context Miles Fidelman
- Re: "professional" in an IETF context Miles Fidelman
- Re: "professional" in an IETF context Brian E Carpenter
- Re: "professional" in an IETF context Stewart Bryant
- It's a trap (Re: "professional" in an IETF contex… Carsten Bormann
- Relitigating history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: "professional" in an IETF context Scott Bradner
- Re: It's a trap (Re: "professional" in an IETF co… Lloyd W
- Re: "professional" in an IETF context Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: "professional" in an IETF context Miles Fidelman
- Re: "professional" in an IETF context Masataka Ohta
- RE: "professional" in an IETF context Vasilenko Eduard
- interface ID (was Re: "professional" in an IETF c… Masataka Ohta
- Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IETF c… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… tom petch
- RE: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: Ancient history (was Accurate history was [Re… Eliot Lear
- Re: Ancient history (was Accurate history was [Re… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… Bron Gondwana
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Ancient history (was Accurate … Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: "professional" in an IETF context Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- RE: "professional" in an IETF context Vasilenko Eduard
- RE: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… tom petch
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… Carsten Bormann
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… Keith Moore
- Re: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Greg Shepherd
- Re: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Nick Hilliard
- RE: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Vasilenko Eduard
- RE: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Keith Moore
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… Bron Gondwana
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… Bron Gondwana
- Re: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- RE: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Scott Bradner
- Re: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… otroan
- Re: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Nick Hilliard
- RE: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Nick Hilliard
- Re: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Stewart Bryant
- Why IPv6 failed [Re: Accurate history [Re: "profe… otroan
- Re: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… S Moonesamy
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… S Moonesamy
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… S Moonesamy
- Re: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Geoff Huston
- Re: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Erik Kline
- RE: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: Accurate history [Re: "professional" in an IE… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… Keith Moore
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: Describing which behavior is appropriate or n… ned+ietf