Re: The ecosystem is moving
Richard Shockey <richard@shockey.us> Sat, 14 May 2016 21:46 UTC
Return-Path: <richard@shockey.us>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7531D12B025 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 14 May 2016 14:46:45 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.1
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=shockey.us
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nbJUXp2T5iLp for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 14 May 2016 14:46:42 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from gproxy4-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy4-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.23.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id AA1D412B01F for <ietf@ietf.org>; Sat, 14 May 2016 14:46:42 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (qmail 12496 invoked by uid 0); 14 May 2016 21:46:38 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO cmgw3) (10.0.90.84) by gproxy4.mail.unifiedlayer.com with SMTP; 14 May 2016 21:46:38 -0000
Received: from box462.bluehost.com ([74.220.219.62]) by cmgw3 with id uMmX1s00R1MNPNq01MmaHY; Sat, 14 May 2016 15:46:37 -0600
X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=cYhB8BzM c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=jTEj1adHphCQ5SwrTAOQMg==:117 a=jTEj1adHphCQ5SwrTAOQMg==:17 a=L9H7d07YOLsA:10 a=9cW_t1CCXrUA:10 a=s5jvgZ67dGcA:10 a=8WrITzYgnNwA:10 a=p-_XEfp0GhYA:10 a=yrkiwgmsf1kA:10 a=PeFO9FbFhS32YxYntvkA:9 a=ll-iCDY8AAAA:8 a=M0OflfRGAAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=Q_ZUZp4JAAAA:8 a=Lng9m2YiAAAA:8 a=USzzmMcJ_bEHeSWsPaoA:9 a=SeMPbNbbDr5UDNKw:21 a=XJY_fNKxtMFisM5l:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=ivbTfD_dPm4A:10 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=uMcabSeSjnnD1wQE:21 a=v4ieWbu7YxbVyx1_:21 a=WZV3AgLwXgSM_dpP:21 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=VpyrLIdO_Ztbr3SWPBuH:22 a=6yl0mh0s51TKORVA8GqK:22 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 a=U6yfTy5cgB89bjDgV5kn:22 a=0UIRAckXqLqf_rcZQTRQ:22 a=BKKCjISod1eDJeS0ORpz:22 a=zjWhRoSqWz9hl55Hdlzg:22
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=shockey.us; s=default; h=Content-type:Mime-version:In-Reply-To:References:Message-ID:To: From:Subject:Date; bh=S0WX/6GwI9BGdZhr6yLY7ONfAUywAwhygNaVFTb16g0=; b=ExDCWz9 +tuYCQJPJ169Bh5iJBqVj5HLJJrVXHkugAq+Ih2aBc/R4RfkDWC75ZcP8o/H3SV0M+UfSmKcYAbZr dcxD1v/XB8Q9FrmLwWJbu7IatyDhoSYnXgVeOeLBECv6;
Received: from [100.36.35.60] (port=49383 helo=[192.168.1.9]) by box462.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from <richard@shockey.us>) id 1b1hOJ-0005H2-7y; Sat, 14 May 2016 15:46:31 -0600
User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.16.0.160506
Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 17:46:23 -0400
Subject: Re: The ecosystem is moving
From: Richard Shockey <richard@shockey.us>
To: Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net>, ietf@ietf.org
Message-ID: <61E903B4-EC9F-433E-A4CF-FDF9183971D1@shockey.us>
Thread-Topic: The ecosystem is moving
References: <20160513165714.035DB1A4B7@ld9781.wdf.sap.corp> <alpine.LRH.2.20.1605131301300.10810@bofh.nohats.ca> <CAPt1N1=DOL7ysKb0pspZz+EbyVaVn=KCSeqQ=MBBU0vCXDcPpw@mail.gmail.com> <57361558.2010700@dcrocker.net> <CAPt1N1n6gh8r-jGWon9rmjkDENmbTmgG4TRfgT1z256DiZt3zg@mail.gmail.com> <5736307E.9000805@dcrocker.net> <389489ad-1f0c-3d2d-fd90-816507322e04@meetinghouse.net>
In-Reply-To: <389489ad-1f0c-3d2d-fd90-816507322e04@meetinghouse.net>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3546092791_2002373742"
X-Identified-User: {3286:box462.bluehost.com:shockeyu:shockey.us} {sentby:smtp auth 100.36.35.60 authed with richard+shockey.us}
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/zNehTR86Of1ZHe-vs_x3yE-3v8I>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 21:46:45 -0000
In Line .. — Richard Shockey Shockey Consulting LLC Chairman of the Board SIP Forum www.shockey.us www.sipforum.org richard<at>shockey.us Skype-Linkedin-Facebook rshockey101 PSTN +1 703-593-2683 From: ietf <ietf-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> Date: Friday, May 13, 2016 at 9:38 PM To: <ietf@ietf.org> Subject: Re: The ecosystem is moving Back to the original point, for a moment: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr> Wed, 11 May 2016 12:58 UTCShow header A very interesting paper (I said "intesresting", I didn't say I agree!) on open networks where independant nodes with independently developed programs interoperate thanks to standards. The author claims closed and centralized systemes are better, because they allow faster evolution (he uses security as an example). Many IETF cases mentioned (XMPP, IPv6, email...) https://whispersystems.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/ My long-standing observation is that the climate has changed. In the early days, there was both "demand pull" for new protocols, and an environment that encouraged (and to an extent) funded new protocol development and deployment. Since then, the climate has changed: - it's very hard to get a new protocol into the ecosystem (there are quite a few useful protocols, that simply are not supported) RS> Like security protocols? Dare I say it its harder and harder to get any work done in standards bodies and the IETF in particular? We have met the enemy and it is us… are we the new ITU? That is another thread altogether. - the drivers have changed from greater interconnection and interoperability (back to the original ARPANET drivers of resource sharing and collaboration) - to "can it be monetized?" RS> Duh! Time to market. That said genuine interconnection and interoperability still does have value. Both the internet and the legacy as well as evolving global SIP voice network proves that. There is a strong counter argument that long term value in global communications, namely persistent revenue streams, are built on globally interoperable services. ATT, DT, BT, FT, Bell, NTT etc have not gone out of business, though they endlessly whine about losing some of the value models. We can send them some cheese to go with their whining. In the short term Layer 7 silos can work, especially in closed user communities, think instant messaging in the financial community and secure public safety applications as you correctly point out but at global scale you hit a wall eventually. It's simply a lot easier to deploy a new SaaS, behind an API, and to charge for it, than it is to deploy new protocol infrastructure. RS> +1 That is certainly what is going on in Real-time Voice Services. Think Skype in its original deployment. I noted that the piece called out the reuse of phone numbers as persistent global identifiers for service delivery. Oh Internet domains .. they are soooooo 90’s J I totally get that. TN’s are globally unique they are ubiquitous, linguistically neutral and people have proven that if you use them correctly you can make a boat load of money. WhatsApp? Wow use the phone numbers and the existing national regulatory number allocation regime. Centralize your application ..collect 8 Billion dollars and do not pass GO. Works for me! Why didn’t I think of that? If I had 5 euro/dollars/pounds for every time I’ve heard “Phone numbers are stupid” I be sitting in the sun in St. Barts or the South of France with a cold glass of Champagne and would have resigned from this list years ago. The exception seems to be when there is a strong "forcing function" - applied top-down. DoD Force Transformation & the Command & Control Research Program drove new operational models into the military environment - into networks, into system specifications, and into doctrine. Examples that come to mind: - XMPP is widely used for tactical chat - DIS is widely used to support distributed simulation and training - including deployment of persistent training federations - Tactical Data Links (e.g., Link-16) are all over the place - DDS is widely used for sensor-weapon linkages Also of note - NNTP remains widely used on the SIPRNET, at the top of the MDMP (Military Decision Making Process) Another example that comes to mind is the Digital Libraries Initiative - which forced a lot standards and protocols for library system interoperability. IMHO, without such forcing functions, the natural tendency is toward centralized, proprietary services - and back toward a world of walled gardens. Even in areas where we have a measure of widespread interoperability - such as calendaring - we see things like Google pulling iCal support - making it ever so much more tedious to schedule a meeting. RS> Excellent observation and spot on with the issue with iCal. Don’t get me started with trying to sync Outlook for Mac with the rest of my Apple device infrastructure. Gurrrrr. Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
- The ecosystem is moving Stephane Bortzmeyer
- 答复: The ecosystem is moving Hejianfei (Jeffrey)
- Re: The ecosystem is moving Paul Wouters
- Re: The ecosystem is moving Paul Wouters
- Re: The ecosystem is moving Dave Cridland
- Re: The ecosystem is moving Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: The ecosystem is moving Martin Rex
- Re: The ecosystem is moving Ted Lemon
- Re: The ecosystem is moving Dave Crocker
- Re: The ecosystem is moving Alia Atlas
- Re: The ecosystem is moving Dave Cridland
- Re: The ecosystem is moving Ted Lemon
- Re: The ecosystem is moving Dave Cridland
- Re: The ecosystem is moving Dave Crocker
- Re: The ecosystem is moving Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: The ecosystem is moving Ted Lemon
- Re: The ecosystem is moving John Levine
- Re: The ecosystem is moving Dave Crocker
- Re: The ecosystem is moving Matthew Kerwin
- Re: The ecosystem is moving Miles Fidelman
- Re: The ecosystem is moving ned+ietf
- Re: The ecosystem is moving Ted Lemon
- Re: The ecosystem is moving John Levine
- Re: The ecosystem is moving Richard Shockey
- Re: The ecosystem is moving Richard Shockey
- Re: The ecosystem is moving Miles Fidelman
- Re: The ecosystem is moving Dave Cridland
- Re: The ecosystem is moving Nico Williams