RE: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100
Dave Hood <dave.hood@ericsson.com> Fri, 27 May 2016 18:39 UTC
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From: Dave Hood <dave.hood@ericsson.com>
To: Jamie Baxter <jamie@dotgay.com>, Margaret Cullen <margaretw42@gmail.com>, Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
Subject: RE: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100
Thread-Topic: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100
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Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 18:39:01 +0000
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We will all make our own personal decisions about the cost-benefit tradeoff of various actions, including travel to particular places. Personal risk is of course high on the list of appropriate criteria. It is also appropriate for organizations to consider personal risk as a criterion in selecting meeting venues. To broaden the scope of the conversation beyond gay friendliness, let me cite a case of a proposal to meet in Israel, some years ago, which was rejected because of fears of terrorism. Though the concern was dramatically overblown IMO, the organization in question did reflect personal safety discomfort of a substantial subset of the membership. The same organization also met on more than one occasion in Kuala Lumpur, in which there were visa issues for, consequently no representation by, holders of Israeli passports. Cost-benefit tradeoff. Many, perhaps most, of us, work for multinational companies, many of which do business in countries that have less than stellar human-rights records. Our employers would surely not insist that any of us travel to locations where we had personal safety concerns, and at least most of our employers would undoubtedly let us avoid venues whose policies we found repugnant for other reasons as well. Whether we choose to continue working for companies that do business in such places is of course part of our individual cost-benefit tradeoffs. What appears to be different between company organizations and the IETF case is that it offers a different cost-benefit tradeoff. We can make a political statement at comparatively low cost. The question is whether we want IETF to become the vehicle for political statements. Dave From: Recentattendees [mailto:recentattendees-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jamie Baxter Sent: Friday, May 27, 2016 11:07 AM To: Margaret Cullen; Keith Moore Cc: recentattendees@ietf.org; Fred Baker (fred); Ietf@Ietf. Org Subject: Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100 Please forgive my abrupt intrusion and inaugural offering into this conversation. I would first offer that it is extremely encouraging to see this portion of the Internet's technical community having this debate and I applaud it. I do believe ICANN could expand their understanding of the issues a great deal from what you are covering here as they continue to explore new meeting sites as well. Fingers crossed they begin to soon. In addition to just looking within the IETF membership, may I also suggest reaching out to Human Rights Watch or ILGA (International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans & Intersex Association) for further documentation of the real world implications facing members of the gay community in all countries around the world. Most especially if this becomes an issue you intend to track moving forward. I trust they can give you a local perspective based on their LGBTQI networks on the ground worldwide. Not only does ILGA produce an annual State Sponsored Homophobia Report, but they are also highly involved in LGBTQI matters within the Universal Periodic Reviews (UPR) taking place at the United Nations, which highlight many of the injustices occurring around the world. Happy to share contacts for ILGA & HRW if it would be helpful. Jamie Jamie Baxter VP of Marketing dotgay LLC 307 Seventh Avenue, Suite 1807 New York, NY 10001 212-235-5154 jamie@dotgay.com<mailto:jamie@dotgay.com> www.dotgay.com<http://www.dotgay.com> Please join us on Facebook at www.facebook.dotgay.com<http://www.facebook.dotgay.com> and follow us at www.twitter.com/dotgay<http://www.twitter.com/dotgay> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100 From: Margaret Cullen <margaretw42@gmail.com<mailto:margaretw42@gmail.com>> Date: Thu, May 26, 2016 4:21 pm To: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com<mailto:moore@network-heretics.com>> Cc: "recentattendees@ietf.org<mailto:recentattendees@ietf.org>" <recentattendees@ietf.org<mailto:recentattendees@ietf.org>>, "Fred Baker (fred)" <fred@cisco.com<mailto:fred@cisco.com>>, "Ietf@Ietf. Org<mailto:Ietf@Ietf.%20Org>" <ietf@ietf.org<mailto:ietf@ietf.org>> > On May 26, 2016, at 4:01 PM, Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com<mailto:moore@network-heretics.com>> wrote: > > Right, but should IETF need to hire lawyers in each country in order to get an expert opinion about whether members of each of an enumerated set of groups can legally be harassed when attending a meeting there, and about the likelihood of that happening? What about the IAOC writing to the IETF list and/or recent attendees when they are considering going to a new country, asking if anyone has any feedback on the idea? And then considering that feedback _before_ making a final decision, signing a contract, etc? It seems to me that if this issue had been raised before the IAOC had made a non-refundable $80K deposit and had negotiated $150K in benefits from the Singapore government, there would have been a lot more latitude for choosing a different location. Margaret
- Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100 IAOC Chair
- Re: Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100 George Michaelson
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… James Seng
- Re: Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100 Ted Hardie
- Re: Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100 Margaret Cullen
- Re: Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100 Benson Schliesser
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100 Benson Schliesser
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Jakob Heitz
- Re: Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100 Ted Hardie
- Re: Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100 Benson Schliesser
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [E] Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singa… Gross, Scott W
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- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Ole Troan
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… otroan
- Re: Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100 Leslie Daigle
- Re: Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100 Dhruv Dhody
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- RE: Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100 Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Ted Lemon
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- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Yoav Nir
- Re: Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100 Harish Pillay
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Background on Singapore go/no go f… Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100 tom p.
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100 nalini.elkins
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Background on Singapore go/no go f… Yoav Nir
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Background on Singapore go/no go f… nalini.elkins
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Background on Singapore go/no go f… Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100 Barry Raveendran Greene
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Background on Singapore go/no go f… nalini.elkins
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Background on Singapore go/no go f… Ted Lemon
- Re: Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100 Barry Raveendran Greene
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Background on Singapore go/no go f… Melinda Shore
- RE: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Background on Singapore go/no go f… nalini.elkins
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Background on Singapore go/no go f… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Background on Singapore go/no go f… Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Background on Singapore go/no go f… nalini.elkins
- Re: Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100 Lawrence Conroy
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Background on Singapore go/no go f… Niels ten Oever
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Background on Singapore go/no go f… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Dave Crocker
- Re: Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100 Melinda Shore
- Re: Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100 Dave Crocker
- Re: Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100 Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Background on Singapore go/no go f… John C Klensin
- Re: Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100 Niels ten Oever
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Keith Moore
- RE: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Carlos Martinez
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Melinda Shore
- IETF-100 maybe it's mostly been said? (Was: Re: [… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Keith Moore
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Lloyd Wood
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Joel Snyder
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Joe Abley
- Re: IETF-100 maybe it's mostly been said? (Was: R… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… James Seng
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Aaron Morgan
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Derek Jett
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… lloyd.wood
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Dan Harkins
- Why we meet (was Re: [Recentattendees] Background… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Bert Wijnen (IETF)
- Re: Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100 Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Lloyd Wood
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Thompson, Jeff
- RE: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… PEDRO ANDRES ARANDA GUTIERREZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… John C Klensin
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Leslie Daigle
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Dave Crocker
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- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Leslie Daigle
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Donald Eastlake
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Margaret Cullen
- Success metrics Re: [Recentattendees] Background … Bill Mills
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- RE: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Michael StJohns
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… kathleen.moriarty.ietf
- Value of meeting attendance (was Re: [Recentatten… Melinda Shore
- RE: Value of meeting attendance (was Re: [Recenta… Christer Holmberg
- RE: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Jamie Baxter
- RE: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Dave Hood
- Re: Value of meeting attendance (was Re: [Recenta… Stephen Strowes
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… James Seng
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Robert O'Callahan
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Value of meeting attendance (was Re: [Recenta… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Michal Krsek
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… John C Klensin
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Yoav Nir
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… lloyd.wood
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… lloyd.wood
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… lloyd.wood
- RE: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… John Levine
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… John Levine
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… James Seng
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… John C Klensin
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Rich Kulawiec
- RE: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Dan Harkins
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Mani, Mehdi
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Mani, Mehdi
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Naeem Khademi
- RE: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Mani, Mehdi
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- RE: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Alexander Nevalennyy
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Yoav Nir
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Yoav Nir
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- RE: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Mary B
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- RE: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Eggert, Lars
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Yoav Nir
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Michael StJohns
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… David Morris
- RE: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Randal Atkinson
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Tim Chown
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… nalini.elkins
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… John C Klensin
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Tim Chown
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Naeem Khademi
- Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/… Brian Ford (brford)