Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt ("Intellectual Property Rights in IETF Technology")
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Mon, 04 April 2016 23:23 UTC
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Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2016 19:23:08 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt ("Intellectual Property Rights in IETF Technology")
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--On Tuesday, April 05, 2016 08:16 +1200 Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: >> Another aspect of my reaction to Barry's comment is that, >> given other changes in the IETF in the last 11 years, I'd >> really like to see 3979bis recast as a matter of ethical >> obligations to the IETF and fellow participants, with >> specific legal (or other) requirements stated as corollaries >> to those ethical principles rather than as standalone rules. > > I'm sympathetic with that idea, but not being a lawyer I don't > know if it's feasible to truly separate them. Brian, I suggest that every legislator or minister in the world who has had to write an introduction that justifies what a particular law or regulation is about (or to get it passed), and every lawyer who has started a sentence with the word "Whereas..." (or its equivalent in other languages) understands how to do that. In our case, the Abstract and Introduction to 3979bis say some nice words about design and intentions, but it is hard to understand the relationships between those statements and the actual rules. It would require a massive reorganization /rewrite to the document and I'm not at all sure the community (much less Scott and Jorge) are up to it, but I think we would be better off if we outlined expectations for disclosure of IPR (and other involvements that might complicate IETF actions) as a professional and ethical matter. I'd think it could be linked to RFC 7154 and similar discussions and clearly focused on what people need to know to develop good-quality standards and related documents in an environment requiring a lot of trust in colleagues. With that set of principles in place, it could then say that some specific rules exist in support of those principles but that other behavior that would violate the principles isn't allowed either. Then it could go on to lay out the rule themselves, in as much legalese as is needed and more or less copying what is now in 3979bis-08, modified to reflect the two weeks of discussions since it was posted. I believe that would have at least two advantages: (i) it would reduce the need to split every last possible hair and cover every possible edge case because badly-intentioned behavior would be considered bad (and sanction-able) in the IETF whether some particular rule clearly applied or not and (ii) it _might_ permit us to have more focused discussions in the future by differentiating disagreement with the principles from disagreement about how particular rules were specified, or whether those specifications adequately reflected, those principles. IMO, the document needs a change of organization and tone, and a way to deal with the edge cases without having to try to identify and specify the handling for each one, much more than it needs major conceptual reform. But changing organization and tone would still represent a significant effort and, again, it isn't clear to me that folks are up to it. john
- Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt ("In… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Russ Housley
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Scott Bradner
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Harald Alvestrand
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Gonzalo Camarillo
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Scott Bradner
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Russ Housley
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Scott O. Bradner
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Michael Cameron
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Michael Cameron
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Alissa Cooper
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … joel jaeggli
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stephan Wenger
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Eggert, Lars
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stephan Wenger
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Barry Leiba
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stephan Wenger
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Barry Leiba
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Barry Leiba
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Michael Cameron
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Ben Campbell
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stephan Wenger
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Scott Bradner
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stephan Wenger
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Barry Leiba
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … joel jaeggli
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Michael Cameron
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stephan Wenger
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … joel jaeggli
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Alissa Cooper
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Alissa Cooper
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Michael Cameron
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Michael Cameron
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stephan Wenger
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … S Moonesamy
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stephan Wenger
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stephan Wenger
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stewart Bryant
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Pete Resnick