Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technical discussion.
Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> Mon, 07 June 2021 14:30 UTC
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Subject: Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technical discussion.
To: ietf@ietf.org
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From: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
Message-ID: <699c932b-f90b-07d0-a64c-37881cd61342@network-heretics.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2021 10:30:46 -0400
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On 6/7/21 8:16 AM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > What we have here is the predictable result of a company that failed > to take moderation seriously and is now desperately throwing > technology at a problem rather than fixing the core problem that they > designed their environment to maximize conflict because that was most > profitable for them. As much as I hate FB (I left the platform in 2016 and have never looked back) I think "failed to take moderation seriously" glosses over a number of inherent problems with social media, particularly when done on a large scale. One is of course that human moderation is time-consuming and therefore expensive if the moderators are paid. It's also hard for a large number of human moderators (required to deal with large volumes of users and traffic) act uniformly. On another widely used platform the moderators are almost completely arbitrary, despite supposedly enforcing a common set of clear standards. So it's not surprising if social media platforms resort to algorithms. And of course the algorithms are flawed because AI is a long way from understanding the many subtleties of human interaction. Unpaid human moderators can be even more capricious than paid humans, because the desire to impose one's own prejudices on others is a strong motivator of volunteers. Even under the best of conditions moderation (whether done by humans or machines) is dangerous both because it can easily squelch valuable input, and because it's often easily gamed for that purpose by people for whom such input is inconvenient. No matter how noble the intent, the effect of moderation is often to favor established prejudices, or worse, to enable bullying. I don't claim to know the solution, but I don't think it's a simple matter of "taking moderation seriously". Keith
- Why we really can't use Facebook for technical di… Dean Willis
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Fred Baker
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Töma Gavrichenkov
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Dean Willis
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Jared Mauch
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Dean Willis
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- RE: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Larry Masinter
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Emil Ivov
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Christian Hopps
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Salz, Rich
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Dean Willis
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Salz, Rich
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- RE: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Larry Masinter
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Fred Baker
- RE: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Larry Masinter
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Lloyd W
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… lloydwood@users.sourceforge.net
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Bron Gondwana
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Keith Moore
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Keith Moore
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Andy Ringsmuth
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Lloyd W
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Keith Moore
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Keith Moore
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Randy Presuhn
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Dean Willis
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Andy Ringsmuth
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Keith Moore
- Re: Moderation at scale is hard^Wimpossible, or W… John Levine
- Re: Moderation at scale is hard^Wimpossible, or W… Emil Ivov
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Richard Shockey
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Aqua Q Glass
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Aqua Q Glass
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Lloyd W
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Lloyd W
- RE: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Rob Wilton (rwilton)
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Lloyd W
- RE: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Rob Wilton (rwilton)
- Re: Why we really can't use Facebook for technica… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: github terms of service, not Why we really ca… John Levine
- The problem we could solve (re github etc.) Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: The problem we could solve (re github etc.) John R. Levine
- Re: The problem we could solve (re github etc.) John C Klensin
- Re: The problem we could solve (re github etc.) Michael Richardson
- Re: The problem we could solve (re github etc.) Michael Richardson
- Re: The problem we could solve (re github etc.) Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: The problem we could solve (re github etc.) Alessandro Vesely
- Re: The problem we could solve (re github etc.) Phillip Hallam-Baker