Re: [EAI] [I18n-discuss] draft-faltstrom-unicode11, i18n "directorate", and related issues

Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> Tue, 04 December 2018 21:04 UTC

Return-Path: <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81272130E9B; Tue, 4 Dec 2018 13:04:51 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.998
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cYD5Se-OgnTQ; Tue, 4 Dec 2018 13:04:48 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-ot1-x336.google.com (mail-ot1-x336.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::336]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE83D130FA5; Tue, 4 Dec 2018 13:04:47 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-ot1-x336.google.com with SMTP id n8so12709783otl.6; Tue, 04 Dec 2018 13:04:47 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=67eZchZ3BTuOQTWviHEvwYhRZEaY+zrYG2UcRtoM60U=; b=NJiElB5OW3vVrOZVhACG12ng6l7x55QooAMm/1OiPl3w3fU3OrNZ+beOAykS540+PS bK0HVj/RNyWBhLwne7pIVnLXminDaUrbUpG3piGqeowZLOR8kQ0wmQ+TjEJ+tcpBdHYD DrXaYCpoOaq4KqbkJduvV6EgdA1ctNGeJNxxko503y4GHwCqRuprv76jxs36M/PHLsBs uxkJ5UxCFLtX7RqMbY6Imvqsq6dsOldhHv71g/28nfrXq60WI9RGO/xHzBDxkFhHB9wx 6HyDiJKq/Mkwpz1PzqSqI4EQi/ba0FgJOOYPBDu5aKDLkdxkbmeGSwxh6pVElV/ImflK dRFg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=67eZchZ3BTuOQTWviHEvwYhRZEaY+zrYG2UcRtoM60U=; b=EFvylkiH+joTYjpgDVxzcR/vmtIqiOqRdVy6XWY0664zi38A8OO9vT1PAdH0kePhoo oWTsoguscoVmZpFDheopE/uGXsDEVCOO2/T/F/CIjeqiphpTHbJcWFo3dG5Al28lJzXR +zah9gGpMxILjp9FmPKnC46KpU6437LmW8g43xMWRCROLnKTqUA99hMio3Hd7pruo7Qx lA0PrdEkbCLKZA2B+1fgpsp0w5k58Vzq2D+U460AoT7HUku8mSM2OiRo2h0zFGK3HMzB r8oMyJqa+liW6lRoKfvCnFLIlNNE2k35a+WgpT5qnF6hURWqZLkN0GtcCqQrsrkxpt5m aCpw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWb0ScYZCxY/gC64cdnnZ0TDfWISlFASy2rQ1p+X7XQQe02KrDHi GPlZTEC5w4/r6fdBVvsbF+vPO1/8EDH3B3jFDGy83w==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/XaFAotIcTxgi5Y+y/9HbRkmPVar60Yd8Tde/XnctrSzi5SR6+YsoXC7MC0Q8hYOAU4aV4EOBkx/B4tIPl1FQc=
X-Received: by 2002:a9d:59c9:: with SMTP id u9mr14453122otg.75.1543957486891; Tue, 04 Dec 2018 13:04:46 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <3079F05172A384D8987A2338@PSB>
In-Reply-To: <3079F05172A384D8987A2338@PSB>
From: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 13:04:20 -0800
Message-ID: <CA+9kkMAoGT-bnEk0bxieQBwd=yM+bvFfV4yyGf9gdyjm=zOtBw@mail.gmail.com>
To: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
Cc: idna-update@ietf.org, ima@ietf.org, precis@ietf.org, i18n-discuss@iab.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008df606057c389d7c"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ima/324SzsRKavsqsEKdcvU7-EQIcE0>
Subject: Re: [EAI] [I18n-discuss] draft-faltstrom-unicode11, i18n "directorate", and related issues
X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" <ima.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ima>, <mailto:ima-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ima/>
List-Post: <mailto:ima@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ima-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima>, <mailto:ima-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2018 21:04:52 -0000

John,

This is to advise you that I have notified the IESG that I strongly
disagree with this conclusion on the scope of an i18n directorate; I heard
calls for a directorate, not for a body with different characteristics
sharing the name.  I have also notified them that I object to the formation
of a body with a different remit to the usual "advise the ADs" unless a
community discussion, charter, and discussion of how membership is selected
takes place.

We charter directorates now as advisory bodies to the ADs, and the ADs bear
the responsibility for the related decisions (taking or not taking the
advice as they see fit).  Since the ADs are selected by the NomCom, how
they derive that authority and its limits are well known.  What you
describe below departs from that, and unless it is made clear what
authority is being granted and how the community is being consulted, I
think it is outside of our process.

Since this amounts to the early stage of an appeal, I have recused myself
from further discussion within the IESG on this topic.

On the more technical topic of the appropriate status (Standards Track or
Informational) for this document, I will follow up as you suggest.

Ted

On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 12:19 PM John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>; wrote:

>
> Those who attended or watched the IETF 102 BOF in July will
> probably recall that it concluded that a group should be formed
> to provide a focus and expert advice on I18n issues to the
> community.   It was described as a "directorate" because that
> term and organizational arrangement is familiar in the IETF, but
> it was quite clear (at least to many of us) that its mission was
> to advise, inform, and perhaps even educate the community on
> i18n issues, rather than merely advising the ART ADs and/or
> designating people to perform reviews late in the Last Call
> cycle.  Alexey (as the ART AD who is apparently taking lead
> responsibility for this work) has indicated that the
> "directorate" should be organized and announced very soon now.
>
>



> Because (if nothing else) the document follows up on RFC 6452,
> which was Standards Track, and because the directorate should
> have a chance to come together and review this document and its
> relationship to other pending work, the Last Call has now been
> cancelled (or, I hope more accurately, deferred).
>
> However, people should be aware of that document, that there has
> been a discussion on the I18Nrp list that is certainly relevant
> to the IDNA list and effort, that includes details not covered
> by the summary above, and may be relevant to the other lists
> copied; that the directorate is expected to be announced soon;
> and that draft-faltstrom-unicode11 and other relevant I-Ds,
> including some expired ones, may soon [re-]appear and require
> review and evaluation.
>
> At least until Patrik or the ADs suggest otherwise, the
> discussion of draft-faltstrom-unicode11 is on I18Nrp
> (subscription and archive information at
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i18nrp )
>
> Happy reading and reviewing.
> And apologies for not getting this note out when the discussion
> first started up.
>
>     john
>     (no particular hats other than interested party although my
> hats as ex-EAI Co-Chair and author or contributor to a number of
> relevant RFCs and pending documents are around here somewhere)
>
> _______________________________________________
> I18n-discuss mailing list
> I18n-discuss@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/i18n-discuss
>