Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs
ned+ima@mrochek.com Tue, 16 August 2011 02:30 UTC
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From: ned+ima@mrochek.com
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Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 19:26:42 -0700
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Cc: Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk>, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, IMA <ima@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs
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> Ned, > Let me try again with a note short enough that my conclusion and > intentions are not obscured (I think that happened the last > time; my apologies). No problem! > I think several of us have reasoned to the conclusion that, on > balance, Message-IDs should not be restricted to ASCII (in the > formal syntax or more generally). Some of us find some of those > arguments more persuasive than others; others of us would choose > a different mix, but the conclusion is the same. I'm actually more concerned about this dragging out than which way it gets decided. > Given the multiple reasons for that conclusion; the apparent > consensus about it in email discussions before, during, and > after IETF 80; and the fairly general impression that an ASCII > restriction would be generally ignored because of the way > Message-IDs are often contructed, I believe that anyone who > continues to believe that non-ASCII Message-IDs should be > prohibited needs to persuasively demonstrate to the WG that they > would cause significant harm. My comment here is that harm has to be associated with operation inside the EAI "zone". Downgrading issues don't count. > That demonstration has not appeared. We can create edge cases > that show that messages with Message-IDs with non-ASCII content > are slightly less robust that Message-IDs that are ASCII-only, > but far more likely cases can be shown to demonstrate that > messages with only ASCII addresses are more robust than messages > that contain non-ASCII text in addresses, etc. To go down that > path is to argue that any message with UTF-8 strings in _any_ > header field is less robust than a corresponding message with > only ASCII in those fields. While that is undoubtedly true, the > WG (and the IETF by issuing the WG a charter) have decided that > the advantages of having internationalized addressing and header > fields far exceed the disadvantages of that drop in robustness. > Moreover, the marginal drop due to non-ASCII Message-IDs alone > (once the risks of any non-ASCII material are accepted) appears > to be close to trivial... making a persuasive demonstration of > harm even less likely. OK, now I see what you were getting at. Sorry for not seeing it the first time. > I urge Joseph to review the history of this discussion and then > close it out. +1 > p.s. As far as "SHOULD keep Message-IDs in ASCII" is concerned, > I could live with it but would actually oppose it. The reasons > are implicit in the above, in your recent notes, and in other > recent discussions: (i) restrictions that we unlikely to be > obeyed are just bad for standards and (ii) to whatever extent > Message-IDs (including values in In-Reply-To and other fields) > are ever examined by humans, forcing id-right to use A-labels > for the most obvious and common cases is just inconsistent with > multiple design goals. So I would prefer a bit of > implementation advice that points the issue out, not a > conformance statement. YMMD but, if you agree even slightly, > let me try to draft a paragraph that we can then figure out > where to put. I certainly can do that. Ned
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs John Levine
- [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs Frank Ellermann
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs ned+ima
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs Charles Lindsey
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs ned+ima
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs Dave CROCKER
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs John C Klensin
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs John Levine
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs Frank Ellermann
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs Frank Ellermann
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs ned+ima
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs ned+ima
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs ned+ima
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs John C Klensin
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs ned+ima
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs Charles Lindsey
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs Frank Ellermann
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs ned+ima
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs Chris Newman
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs John C Klensin
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs Charles Lindsey
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs Dave CROCKER
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs John C Klensin
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs Charles Lindsey
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs Julien ÉLIE
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs John C Klensin
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs Charles Lindsey
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs Julien ÉLIE
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs Charles Lindsey
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs John C Klensin
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs Frank Ellermann
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs John Levine
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs John C Klensin
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs Julien ÉLIE
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs Frank Ellermann
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs Julien ÉLIE
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs Julien ÉLIE
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs Frank Ellermann
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs John C Klensin
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs Frank Ellermann
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs Charles Lindsey
- Re: [EAI] UTF-8 in Message-IDs Julien ÉLIE