Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation Considered Fragile

Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com> Fri, 03 August 2018 14:18 UTC

Return-Path: <touch@strayalpha.com>
X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A0E4131022; Fri, 3 Aug 2018 07:18:29 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.988
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.988 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=strayalpha.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XPLjcszzJmeC; Fri, 3 Aug 2018 07:18:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from server217-3.web-hosting.com (server217-3.web-hosting.com [198.54.115.226]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3FE1130F04; Fri, 3 Aug 2018 07:18:25 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=strayalpha.com; s=default; h=To:References:Message-Id:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To: From:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=jE8SLVMiVLV9xRpuSxX/CwC+VrslD2nBkah3LbQt+fc=; b=Gv9Ody5E7qtfpyQoiWk49NNze plHSZGeJCWaZwuBPRXI4MGhlYAfwcBhLBZY+iOKmED4Sow26p4gO4y5+kL+/QKl9Vfe9ImXbcgdm7 4B4Qhsgy0LqCp4R9HuGat6ug2aMXIPSnYwe4Fme3Y9iFbK2wBVaZf/V+0FpAdqtmKu/o44oPs8xn1 IICN6r3pn8zlg4xU4d+inhPiKlASlU8zH2nT9cjv9q+xceBQ9vOrcOxCVSZ8sBpExaoVzZZ8jUr3j ZYtivM2pWFI2jtI9gYRGaN0pMW/JJTQibiMERZRJx0npO8a2b6PlWwuSFtuiwRb0FWwmnmcabPa8l CFwp4q01w==;
Received: from cpe-172-250-240-132.socal.res.rr.com ([172.250.240.132]:58818 helo=[192.168.1.77]) by server217.web-hosting.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from <touch@strayalpha.com>) id 1flauM-003gZy-7Y; Fri, 03 Aug 2018 10:18:24 -0400
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_427D5DDD-BFF8-4922-BCE1-BBA667511667"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\))
From: Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>
In-Reply-To: <FB96C1B8-3E8F-4C03-B8A5-CB7A4621CCE0@employees.org>
Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2018 07:18:19 -0700
Cc: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>, int-area <int-area@ietf.org>, intarea-chairs@ietf.org
Message-Id: <99194764-8B78-4F90-ABC9-0CA46FBE5C33@strayalpha.com>
References: <F227637E-B12D-45AA-AD69-74C947409012@ericsson.com> <0466770D-C8CA-49BB-AC10-5805CFDFB165@strayalpha.com> <6EDF0F79-C8F3-4F05-8442-FF55576ADDD0@employees.org> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1807271530280.14354@uplift.swm.pp.se> <CALx6S35LthDLRry7k-pF8KSoX4BXBA8kyArOpDUAcJMDCoLQpQ@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1807280811540.14354@uplift.swm.pp.se> <8640DCF6-A525-4CF7-A89D-2DEDBF0FADC8@strayalpha.com> <FFF1C23B-7A24-46BC-929E-DD56C77D69A2@employees.org> <A248CA44-B568-4CB9-B450-067B1845AF9B@strayalpha.com> <CALx6S36w=5J0-=JQqrX0_PR7254V0HrhJct7oomPKdxSOSU43w@mail.gmail.com> <2872BF43-20AA-4179-9269-9C4FE6F5986B@strayalpha.com> <CALx6S35VidDr1uTGCHeb3Dcc0qF3O8Lz0vvV-XKPfbY057n6XA@mail.gmail.com> <cd34a1e8da6ff4bbf5b20875827d2a09@strayalpha.com> <CALx6S348jLsnHG3gp-mh9d4KJ1bROT3OcVz=XjwVgpv1aSsi_w@mail.gmail.com> <c271e9501b381c9be6ac1f3a0095a1d9@strayalpha.com> <CALx6S35DRCEjS5qaVkj2_FJzNumrkSfCZmoSJLueqqZs+pm9gw@mail.gmail.com> <240E40E2-81F9-4FAB-A271-825BD7AC6073@strayalpha.com> <96 EB5285-E0F6-43BB-A6CE-B087A4F8DF62@employees.org> <CALx6S36Ef3t7Axmx9hg994DHpVM=NdW-7ygf89E==gL4XKrkQg@mail.gmail.com> <5E21B3C1-0420-404C-9824-9B7E5A850BC5@employees.org> <CALx6S34qmKngi3hK_PVrJA1DMa5kfaLww3jfqRKN=up5v0Y0Ww@mail.gmail.com> <8D23C8B1-C2DA-4A8B-A2BE-8CCF6233B3A5@strayalpha.com> <D1D5EDCE-7C43-4CD8-947C-AA43CDB18892@employees.org> <1B04E207-08FA-400F-BBED-67379FEFD64E@strayalpha.com> <62804AFB-A3A9-45E5-8EEB-EF46CB37AB0D@employees.org> <ea11591585f8efb373ec6c273e9f750e@strayalpha.com> <5A8E1A6D-F9BD-4F11-B02E-0B23FA046DF7@employees.org> <0a3864b522d890e0d1f16b45d9de3c70@strayalpha.com> <0967B124-4DE2-4E58-BDFE-39785EC27832@employees.org> <B70622BD-A01F-4B9E-AABE-BB1CEB2F8A6E@strayalpha.com> <FB96C1B8-3E8F-4C03-B8A5-CB7A4621CCE0@employees.org>
To: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1)
X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0
X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report
X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server217.web-hosting.com
X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org
X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12]
X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - strayalpha.com
X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server217.web-hosting.com: authenticated_id: touch@strayalpha.com
X-Authenticated-Sender: server217.web-hosting.com: touch@strayalpha.com
X-Source:
X-Source-Args:
X-Source-Dir:
X-From-Rewrite: unmodified, already matched
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/int-area/ADfwEODiwNHoBBCU5fLKDm79LXA>
Subject: Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation Considered Fragile
X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List <int-area.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/int-area>, <mailto:int-area-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/int-area/>
List-Post: <mailto:int-area@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:int-area-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area>, <mailto:int-area-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2018 14:18:29 -0000


> On Aug 3, 2018, at 2:54 AM, Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org> wrote:
> 
> Joe,
> 
>>>> It also looks like (at first glance at least) these devices work only when there isn't multipath between the back and front side.
>>> 
>>> The A+P routers are stateless and do support multipath. Including traffic does not need to be symmetric.
>>> That’s the main selling point for A+P, that you don’t need per flow state in the core of the network.
>> 
>> The +P part doesn’t seem like it’s compatible with fragmentation, though - yet it doesn’t update RFC791 to deprecate it throughout the Internet.
> 
> It’s not incompatible with fragmentation. Just that there are some pitfalls. As explained in rfc7597. 

A flawed solution is not reason to break the rest of the Internet by deprecating fragmentation.

> ...If you can solve this problem in a better way please go ahead. 

I don’t have to, nor do I care to. But it isn’t productive to break another part of the Internet in the search for a solution to this problem.

Joe