Re: [Int-area] Re draft-daveor-cgn-logging-02/RFC6302

[Dave O'Reilly <[e-mail]>]

I have uploaded a new version (-04) with the following amendments:

1. Removed proposal to amend RFC6302 and RFC6269.
2. Changed section 7.4 as per our discussion below.
3. Added an acknowledgements section at the end of the document.

See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-daveor-cgn-logging/

Regards,
daveor


> On 9 Apr 2018, at 14:56, [e-mail] wrote:
> 
> Hi Dave, 
> 
> The proposed text would work. 
> 
> Cheers,
> Med
> 
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Dave O'Reilly [mailto:[e-mail]]
>> Envoyé : lundi 9 avril 2018 14:43
>> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
>> Cc : [e-mail]
>> Objet : Re: [Int-area] Re draft-daveor-cgn-logging-02/RFC6302
>> 
>> The only problem that I have with this is the use of the word “should” - I
>> hope I’m not splitting hairs here, but I think there is a slight risk of
>> "victim blaming".
>> 
>> Consider the scenario where the entity with the Internet-facing server (and
>> therefore with the logs) is a victim of some sort of crime. They have the
>> required logs but they weren’t aware that there was a time offset with
>> reference to a global time source. Again, this is something that happens all
>> the time. Interpreted in this context, I think an indication of what they
>> should have been doing might be a bit on the strong side. What do you think?
>> 
>> What about this weaker-worded alternative:
>> 
>> “If the entity controlling the server is aware that there is an offset
>> required to synchronise with a global time source, it is expected that the
>> offset would be indicated by the entity while the logs were being collected.”
>> 
>> daveor
>> 
>> 
>>> On 9 Apr 2018, at 07:26, <[e-mail]>
>> <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Dave,
>>> 
>>> What about:
>>> 
>>> "The entity which owns the server should indicate the required offset to
>> synchronize with a global time source."
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Med
>>> 
>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>> De : Dave O'Reilly [mailto:[e-mail]]
>>>> Envoyé : samedi 7 avril 2018 16:31
>>>> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
>>>> Cc : [e-mail]
>>>> Objet : Re: [Int-area] Re draft-daveor-cgn-logging-02/RFC6302
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Mohamed,
>>>> 
>>>> I dont agree with this bit:
>>>> 
>>>>> Adjusting the log records to synchronize with a global time source is the
>>>> responsibility of the entity which owns the server.
>>>> 
>>>> I think that both in principle and in practice this
>>>> synchronisation/correction would be carried out by law enforcement as part
>> of
>>>> their investigation. There might, I suppose, be an expectation that a
>> server
>>>> operator would indicate if there was a difference between the times in
>> their
>>>> logs and a standard time reference but in any case the law enforcement
>>>> officer is going to have to go through the logs and calibrate the times in
>>>> the context of whatever matter they are investigating.
>>>> 
>>>> The log data plus analysis/calibration would form part of the
>> justification
>>>> for issuing a subpoena for CGN records (depending on jurisdiction), and
>> the
>>>> law enforcement officer would have to be able to stand over the grounds
>> for
>>>> accessing the logs if the request is challenged. If the information being
>>>> requested is heavily dependent on the accuracy of the times stated in the
>>>> request, as might be the case if CGN was in use, one could reasonably
>> expect
>>>> to be asked to justify that the times indicated are accurate (with
>> reference
>>>> to some sort of time standard) - at which point the law enforcement
>> officer,
>>>> forensic analyst, or whoever gathered the evidence would need to be able
>> to
>>>> explain how they concluded that the times in the subpoena were the correct
>>>> ones. This would presumably include any offset calibration that was
>> carried
>>>> out, or at least the results of an investigation to confirm that such a
>>>> calibration was not required.
>>>> 
>>>> Also, if a server operator adjusted the times in logs before providing
>> them
>>>> as evidence, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that the
>>>> authenticity/integrity of the evidence could be challenged because the log
>>>> data has been altered since it was recorded.
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> daveor
>>>> 
>>>>> On 6 Apr 2018, at 08:03, <[e-mail]>
>>>> <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Dave,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Glad to see that we are in agreement.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don't think that those sections are needed for the reasons explained in
>>>> my previous message.
>>>>> 
>>>>> One way to avoid misinterpreting your draft as conflicting with existing
>>>> RFCs is to tweak section 7.4, e.g.:
>>>>> 
>>>>> OLD:
>>>>> 
>>>>> There are many reasons why it is may not be possible to record logs
>>>>> with reference to a centralised time source (e.g.  NTP).  This could
>>>>> include scenarios should as security sensitive networks, or internal
>>>>> production networks.  Times MAY OPTIONALLY be recorded with reference
>>>>> to a centralised time source (e.g.  NTP) but this is not necessary.
>>>>> As long as times are recorded consistently, it should be possible to
>>>>> measure the offset from a reference time source if required for the
>>>>> purposes of quering records at another source.  This is common
>>>>> practice in digital forensics.
>>>>> 
>>>>> NEW:
>>>>> 
>>>>> There are many reasons why it may not be possible for servers to record
>>>> logs
>>>>> with reference to a global time source.  This could
>>>>> include scenarios such as security sensitive networks, or internal
>>>>> production networks. As long as times are recorded consistently, it
>>>> should be possible to
>>>>> measure the offset from a traceable global time source (if required) for
>>>> the
>>>>> purposes of querying records at another source. Adjusting the log
>> records
>>>> to
>>>>> synchronize with a global time source is the responsibility of the
>> entity
>>>>> which owns the server.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Med
>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>>> De : Dave O'Reilly [mailto:[e-mail]]
>>>>>> Envoyé : jeudi 5 avril 2018 16:29
>>>>>> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
>>>>>> Cc : [e-mail]
>>>>>> Objet : Re: [Int-area] Re draft-daveor-cgn-logging-02/RFC6302
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Mohamed,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks for your mail.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I agree with you.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The only reason I put these sections in here was because the IESG
>> conflict
>>>>>> review indicated a conflict between this document and the other two RFCs
>>>>>> mentioned (Ref: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/conflict-review-daveor-
>>>> cgn-
>>>>>> logging/). In an effort to reconcile the feedback received with the
>>>> content
>>>>>> of draft-daveor-cgn-logging, I added these sections.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Perfectly happy to remove them if that is the way the consensus emerges.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> daveor
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 5 Apr 2018, at 15:24, <[e-mail]>
>>>>>> <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi Dave,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I have a comment about the proposed update to RFC 6269 (the same
>> comment
>>>>>> applies for RFC6302, though).
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Actually, the proposed NEW text will require an extra effort to align
>>>>>> timestamps among the server which maintains the logs, the authorities
>> that
>>>>>> relay an abuse claim, and the provider who manages the CGN. That extra
>>>> effort
>>>>>> has to be done by the entity managing the log server.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> From that standpoint, the proposed NEW text is no more than another
>>>> example
>>>>>> of "Accurate time-keeping"...which IMHO does not justify an update to
>> the
>>>>>> 6269.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> Med
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>>>>> De : Int-area [mailto:[e-mail]] De la part de Dave
>>>>>> O'Reilly
>>>>>>>> Envoyé : mercredi 4 avril 2018 22:26
>>>>>>>> À : [e-mail]
>>>>>>>> Objet : Re: [Int-area] Re draft-daveor-cgn-logging-02/RFC6302
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Further to my email below, I have revised draft-daveor-cgn-logging and
>>>>>>>> revision -03 is now available. I have restructured the content into
>> the
>>>>>> form
>>>>>>>> of recommendations.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Here’s the link: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-daveor-cgn-logging-
>> 03
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I have also included, at sections 7.6 and 7.7, proposed amendments to
>>>>>> RFC6302
>>>>>>>> and RFC6269 respectively.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> daveor
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 20 Mar 2018, at 13:45, Dave O'Reilly <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> further to presenting at IETF-101 yesterday I wanted to send a follow
>>>> up
>>>>>>>> email to see if there is interest in working on a new best current
>>>>>> practice
>>>>>>>> for logging at internet-facing servers.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I hope I adequately presented the reasons why I think there needs to
>> be
>>>>>>>> some revision of the recommendations of RFC6302 and that there is some
>>>>>>>> additional points to be considered in draft-daveor-cgn-logging-02.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The current version of the document (draft-daveor-cgn-logging-02)
>>>>>> contains
>>>>>>>> recommendations, but it is not really in the form of a BCP. If there
>> is
>>>>>>>> interest, I would like to suggest, in the first instance at least,
>> that
>>>> I
>>>>>>>> prepare a new version of the document, structured in the form of a BCP
>>>>>> with a
>>>>>>>> set of recommendations for discussion.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Any feedback would be appreciated.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Thanks and best regards,
>>>>>>>>> daveor
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Int-area mailing list
>>>>>>>>> [e-mail]
>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Int-area mailing list
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>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area
>>>>> 
>>> 
>