Re: [Int-area] Comments on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-06
Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> Wed, 30 January 2019 18:34 UTC
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To: "Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>, Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>, Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc: int-area <int-area@ietf.org>
References: <CALx6S35kwvHL5iE4Ci10LQbPzun3k1C-T4m5B55yAyL+nP4sdQ@mail.gmail.com> <3B29EAA5-5989-4A8F-857B-3DEF63A7FEA7@gmail.com> <538a3580-dd3a-a778-dda0-bfc30f749bd9@gmail.com> <751bf1d2e6f94e98a5f9bafad3b27bf4@boeing.com> <a3136fb8-2c5b-5c53-bde1-f29cd55641e2@gmail.com> <6adb543c1bb447f5931450d74484027b@boeing.com>
From: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
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Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 18:34:50 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Int-area] Comments on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-06
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I think pretty much anything would need that wouldn't it? - Stewart On 30/01/2019 18:29, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > > Hi Stewart, > > Sounds like that would require some sort of encapsulation protocol and > > low-level code in the kernel or hardware to strip the UDP headers, right? > > Fred > > *From:*Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 30, 2019 10:15 AM > *To:* Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>; Fred Baker > <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>; Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> > *Cc:* int-area <int-area@ietf.org> > *Subject:* Re: [Int-area] Comments on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-06 > > Hi Fred > > I had something quite simple in mind: > > Fragment the IP packet just as you do today and send each fragment as > opaque data in a simple 8 byte basic UDP payload with port set to IP. > Set the source port based on a hash of the 5 tuple. Then resemble the > IP just like you always would. > > - Stewart > > On 30/01/2019 16:55, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > > Hi Stewart, > > >> It we really need to fragment a packet, it would be better to > stick the fragments inside a common UDP/IP(no frag) shim. > > I agree. Two different approaches for UDP fragmentation that avoid > IP fragmentation > > are currently under consideration: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-intarea-gue-extensions/ > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-udp-options/ > > Thanks - Fred > > *From:*Int-area [mailto:int-area-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of > *Stewart Bryant > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 30, 2019 6:14 AM > *To:* Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> > <mailto:fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>; Tom Herbert > <tom@herbertland.com> <mailto:tom@herbertland.com> > *Cc:* int-area <int-area@ietf.org> <mailto:int-area@ietf.org> > *Subject:* Re: [Int-area] Comments on > draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-06 > > On 29/01/2019 23:37, Fred Baker wrote: > > > > > Section 4.5: > > "IP fragmentation causes problems for some routers that support Equal > > Cost Multipath (ECMP). Many routers that support ECMP execute the > > algorithm described in Section 4.4 in order to perform flow based > > forwarding; > > > > As far as I know, routers that hash fields in the IP header to select a en ECMP next hop do so because all packets in a flow will hash the same way (modulo the issues with the transport port number), not because they are doing per-flow forwarding. The do so explicitly to avoid having to maintain per-flow state and yet make all fragments of a message follow the same path. > > I agree with Fred. ECMP is normally done to distribute the load > over the available next hops on a best effort basis. Originally it > was done per packet, but that gave problems with out of order > packet delivery, so the routers moved to doing it based on the > five tuple described in this draft. It is a stateless best effort > ECMP process with no regard to specific flows and the path for any > five tuple may move arbitrarily if routing changes its mind on the > ECMP set. > > Fragmented packets are really bad news in networks that need ECMP. > There is not enough entropy in the SA/DA/Protocol triplet and > anything else results in misorder. But if ECMP is not done this > overloads the default path. > > MPLS is also stateless but there are more options, although the > most common is to look past BoS to the five tuple, however some > "features" make mistakes and look at a non-existent five tuple > despite hints in the packet that thus is a bad idea. > > > > therefore, the exhibit they same problematic behaviors > > described in Section 4.4. In IPv6, the flow label may alternatively > > used as input to the algorithm as opposed to parsing the transport > > layer of packets to discern port numbers. The flow label should be > > consistently set for a packets of flow including fragments, such that > > a device does not need to parse packets beyond the IP header for the > > purposes of ECMP." > > > > Add to section 7.3: > > > > "Routers SHOULD use IPv6 flow label for ECMP routing as described in [RFC6438]." > > If we want to migrate to the FL then we really need to state that > the FL MUST be set by the sender. Without, that we are never going > to wean routers off looking at the five tuple, if indeed we ever > succeed in doing that. > > It we really need to fragment a packet, it would be better to > stick the fragments inside a common UDP/IP(no frag) shim. Then the > forwarders could carry on just as they are. We would never get > misorder and we would not be faced with the impossible problem of > changing the Internet core forwarding behaviour to a single > consistent model. > > - Stewart > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Int-area mailing list > > Int-area@ietf.org <mailto:Int-area@ietf.org> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, > > Defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. > > Sun Tzu > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Int-area mailing list > > Int-area@ietf.org <mailto:Int-area@ietf.org> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area >
- [Int-area] Comments on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Comments on draft-ietf-intarea-fra… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Comments on draft-ietf-intarea-fra… Fred Baker
- Re: [Int-area] Comments on draft-ietf-intarea-fra… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Int-area] Comments on draft-ietf-intarea-fra… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Int-area] Comments on draft-ietf-intarea-fra… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Comments on draft-ietf-intarea-fra… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Comments on draft-ietf-intarea-fra… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Int-area] Comments on draft-ietf-intarea-fra… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Comments on draft-ietf-intarea-fra… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Int-area] Comments on draft-ietf-intarea-fra… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Comments on draft-ietf-intarea-fra… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Int-area] Comments on draft-ietf-intarea-fra… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Comments on draft-ietf-intarea-fra… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Int-area] Comments on draft-ietf-intarea-fra… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Int-area] Comments on draft-ietf-intarea-fra… Templin (US), Fred L