Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile
Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> Wed, 11 September 2019 22:59 UTC
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From: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>
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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 15:59:24 -0700
In-Reply-To: <2f6ad3ad143d44588059f083a9e1835c@boeing.com>
Cc: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>, Geoff Huston <gih@apnic.net>, Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>, "int-area@ietf.org" <int-area@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan <suresh@kaloom.com>
To: "Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
References: <efabc7c9f72c4cd9a31f56de24669640@boeing.com> <2EB90A57-9BBD-417C-AEDB-AFBFBB906956@gmail.com> <CAHw9_iKozCAC+8TGS0fSxVZ_3pJW7rnhoKy=Y3AxLqWEXvemcA@mail.gmail.com> <4C8FE1C4-0054-4DA1-BC6E-EBBE78695F1B@gmail.com> <BYAPR05MB5463F112A3FFA8CE6378F3D3AEBB0@BYAPR05MB5463.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <ab0d5600-d71c-9f0b-2955-64074e040bc6@strayalpha.com> <E770BEF0-D901-4CD0-96E6-C626B560DCD6@gmail.com> <163CD364-2975-467A-8925-F114FFD9C422@employees.org> <E00B6159-2771-42D8-B5E8-7750E0B828DE@strayalpha.com> <3764D860-BC6F-441A-86EF-59E1742D7654@employees.org> <939AFA6F-4C75-4532-82DE-77D14ABC41ED@strayalpha.com> <5C51DCDC-4031-47D9-A28E-812D0E66EE35@employees.org> <5DAA16CC-791E-4042-95F6-65DA58D23EB8@gmail.com> <EA3B45A1-FFD2-49A5-B577-602065632F41@strayalpha.com> <5d22dd34-3972-060e-ddc1-b7f27a110a69@si6networks.com> <14f06217149d40ba8a41865ebb08ee08@boeing.com> <91894E0E-09D3-42E4-B6C4-88AE4493D796@apnic.net> <2f6ad3ad143d44588059f083a9e1835c@boeing.com>
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Subject: Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile
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Fred, > On Sep 11, 2019, at 7:48 AM, Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > > Geoff, the 1280 MTU came from Steve Deering's November 13, 1997 proposal to > the ipngwg. The exact message from the ipng archives is reproduced below. > > 1280 isn't just a recommendation - it's *the law*. Any link that cannot do 1280 > (tunnels included) is not an IPv6 link. Yes from IPv6’s view, but you can make a link that can’t do 1280 work if it has its own local L2 fragmentation / reassembly as noted in Steve’s email. ATM with is 53 byte cells comes to mind. Bob > > Fred > > --- > From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Nov 13 16:41:01 1997 > Received: (from majordomo@localhost) > by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.8.8+Sun.Beta.0/8.8.8) id QAA14339 > for ipng-dist; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 16:38:00 -0800 (PST) > Received: from Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1 [129.146.1.13]) > by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.8.8+Sun.Beta.0/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA14332 > for <ipng@sunroof>; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 16:37:51 -0800 (PST) > Received: from saturn.sun.com (saturn.EBay.Sun.COM [129.150.69.2]) > by Eng.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-5.3) with SMTP id QAA28654 > for <ipng@sunroof.Eng.Sun.COM>; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 16:37:48 -0800 > Received: from postoffice.cisco.com (postoffice.cisco.com [171.69.200.88]) > by saturn.sun.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28706 > for <ipng@sunroof.Eng.Sun.COM>; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 16:37:49 -0800 (PST) > Received: from [171.69.199.124] (deering-mac.cisco.com [171.69.199.124]) by postoffice.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id QAA20862; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 16:37:48 -0800 (PST) > X-Sender: deering@postoffice.cisco.com > Message-Id: <v03110702b0598e80008d@[171.69.199.124]> > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 16:37:00 -0800 > To: IPng Working Group <ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com> > From: Steve Deering <deering@cisco.com> > Subject: (IPng 4802) increasing the IPv6 minimum MTU > Cc: hinden@ipsilon.com > Sender: owner-ipng@eng.sun.com > Precedence: bulk > > In the ipngwg meeting in Munich, I proposed increasing the IPv6 minimum MTU > from 576 bytes to something closer to the Ethernet MTU of 1500 bytes, (i.e., > 1500 minus room for a couple layers of encapsulating headers, so that min- > MTU-size packets that are tunneled across 1500-byte-MTU paths won't be > subject to fragmentation/reassembly on ingress/egress from the tunnels, > in most cases). > > After the short discussion in the Munich meeting, I called for a show of > hands, and of those who raised their hands (about half the attendees, if > I recall correctly), the vast majority were in favor of this change -- > there were only two or three people opposed. However, we recognized that > a fundamental change of this nature requires thoughtful discussion and > analysis on the mailing list, to allow those who were not at the meeting > and those who were there but who have since had second thoughts, to express > their opinions. A couple of people have already, in private conversation, > raised some concerns that were not identified in the discussion at the > meeting, which I report below. We would like to get this issue settled as > soon as possible, since this is the only thing holding up the publication > of the updated Proposed Standard IPv6 spec (the version we expect to advance > to Draft Standard), so let's see if we can come to a decision before the ID > deadline at the end of next week (hoping there isn't any conflict between > "thoughtful analysis" and "let's decide quickly" :-). > > The reason I would like to increase the minimum MTU is that there are some > applications for which Path MTU Discovery just won't work very well, and > which will therefore limit themselves to sending packets no larger than > the minimum MTU. Increasing the minimum MTU would improve the bandwidth > efficiency, i.e., reduce the header overhead (ratio of header bytes to > payload bytes), for those applications. Some examples of such applications > are: > > (1) Large-fanout, high-volume multicast apps, such as multicast video > ("Internet TV"), multicast netnews, and multicast software > distribution. I believe these applications will end up limiting > themselves to packets no large than the min MTU in order to avoid > the danger of incurring an "implosion" of ICMP Packet-Too-Big > messages in response. Even though we have specified that router > implementations must carefully rate-limit the emission of ICMP > error messages, I am nervous about how well this will work in > practice, especially once there is a lot of high-speed, bulk > multicasting happening. An appropriate choice of rate or > probability of emission of Packet-Too-Big responses to multicasts > really depends on the fan-out of the multicast trees and the MTUs of > all the branches in that tree, which is unknown and unknowable to > the routers. Being sensibly conservative by choosing a very low > rate could, in many cases, significantly increase the delay before > the multicast source learns the right MTU for the tree and, hence, > before receivers on smaller-MTU branches can start receiving the > data. > > (2) DNS servers, or other similar apps that have the requirement of > sending a small amount of data (a few packets at most) to a very > large and transient set of clients. Such servers often reside on > links, such as Ethernet, that have an MTU bigger than the links on > which many of their clients may reside, such as dial-up links. If > those servers were to send many reply messages of the size of their > own links (as required by PMTU Discovery), they could incur very > many ICMP packet-too-big messages and consequent retransmissions of > the replies -- in the worse case, multiplying the total bandwidth > consumption (and delivery delay) by 2 or 3 times that of the > alternative approach of just using the min MTU always. Furthermore, > the use of PMTU Discovery could result in such servers filling up > lots of memory withed cached PMTU information that will never be > used again (at least, not before it gets garbage-collected). > > The number I propose for the new minimum MTU is 1280 bytes (1024 + 256, > as compared to the classic 576 value which is 512 + 64). That would > leave generous room for encapsulating/tunnel headers within the Ethernet > MTU of 1500, e.g., enough for two layers of secure tunneling including > both ESP and AUTH headers. > > For medium-to-high speed links, this change would reduce the IPv6 header > overhead for min MTU packets from 7% to 3% (a little less than the IPv4 > header overhead for 576-byte IPv4 packets). For low-speed links such as > analog dial-up or low-speed wireless, I assume that header compression will > be employed, which compresses out the IPv6 header completely, so the IPv6 > header overhead on such links is effectively zero in any case. > > Here is a list of *disadvantages* to increasing the IPv6 minimum MTU that > have been raised, either publically or privately: > > (1) This change would require the specification of link-specific > fragmentation and reassembly protocols for those link-layers > that can support 576-byte packets but not 1280-byte packets, > e.g., AppleTalk. I think such a protocol could be very simple, > and I briefly sketch such a protocol in Appendix I of this > message, as an example. > > Often, those links that have a small native MTU are also the ones > that have low bandwidth. On low-bandwidth links, it is often > desirable to locally fragment and reassemble IPv6 packets anyway > (even 576-byte ones) in order to avoid having small, interactive > packets (e.g., keystrokes, character echoes, or voice samples) > be delayed excessively behind bigger packets (e.g., file transfers); > the small packets can be interleaved with the fragments of the > big packets. Someone mentioned in the meeting in Munich that the > ISSLL WG was working on a PPP-specific fragmentation and > reassembly protocol for precisely this reason, so maybe the job > of specifying such a protocol is already being taken care of. > > (2) Someone raised the concern that, if we make the minimum MTU close > to Ethernet size, implementors might never bother to implement PMTU > Discovery. That would be regrettable, especially if the Internet > evolves to much more widespread use of links with MTUs bigger > than Ethernet's, since IPv6 would then fail to take advantage of > the bandwidth efficiencies possible on larger MTU paths. > > (3) Peter Curran pointed out to me that using a larger minimum MTU for > IPv6 may result in much greater reliance on *IPv4* fragmentation and > reassembly during the transition phase while much of the IPv6 > traffic is being tunneled over IPv4. This could incur unfortunate > performance penalties for tunneled IPv6 traffic (disasterous > penalties if there is non-negligible loss of IPv4 fragments). > I have included Peter's message, describing his concern in more > detail, in Appendix II of this message. > > (4) Someone expressed the opinion that the requirement for link-layer > fragmentation and reassembly of IPv6 over low-cost, low-MTU links > like Firewire, would doom the potential use of IPv6 in cheap > consumer devices in which minimizing code size is important -- > implementors of cheap Firewire devices would choose IPv4 instead, > since it would not need a fragmenting "shim" layer. This may well > be true, though I suspect the code required for local frag/reasm > would be negligible compared to the code required for Neighbor > Discovery. > > Personally, I am not convinced by the above concerns that increasing the > minimum MTU would be a mistake, but I'd like to hear what the rest of the > WG thinks. Are there other problems that anyone can think of? As I > mentioned earlier, the clear consensus of the Munich attendees was to > increase the minimum MTU, so we need to find out if these newly-identified > problems are enough to swing the consensus in the other direction. Your > feedback is heartily requested. > > Steve > > ---------- > > Appendix I > > Here is a sketch of a fragmentation and reassembly protocol (call it FRP) > to be employed between the IP layer and the link layer of a link with native > (or configured) MTU less than 1280 bytes. > > Identify a Block Size, B, which is the lesser of (a) the native MTU of the > link or (b) a value related to the bandwidth of the link, chosen to bound > the latency that one block can impose on a subsequent block. For example, > to stay within a latency of 200 ms on a 9600 bps link, choose a block size > of .2 * 9600 = 2400 bits = 240 bytes. > > IPv6 packets of length <= B are transmitted directly on the link. > IPv6 packets of length > B are fragmented into blocks of size B > (the last block possibly being shorter than B), and those fragments > are transmitted on the link with an FRP header containing the following > fields: > > [packet ID, block number, end flag] > > where: > > packet ID is the same for all fragments of the same packet, > and is incremented for each new fragmented packet. The size of > the packet ID field limits how many packets can be in flight or > interleaved on the link at any one time. > > block number identifies the blocks within a packet, starting at > block zero. The block number field must be large enough to > identify 1280/B blocks. > > end flag is a one-bit flag which is used to mark the last block > of a packet. > > For example, on a 9600 bps serial link, one might use a block size of > 240 bytes and an 8-bit FRP header of the following format: > > 4-bit packet ID, which allows interleaving of up to 16 packets. > 3-bit block number, to identify blocks numbered 0 through 5. > 1-bit end flag. > > On a 256 kpbs AppleTalk link, one might use the AppleTalk-imposed block > size of ~580 bytes and an 8-bit FRP header of the following format: > > 5-bit packet ID, which allows for up to 32 fragmented packets in > flight from each source across the AppleTalk internet. > 2-bit block number, to identify blocks numbered 0 through 2. > 1-bit end flag. > > On a multi-access link, like AppleTalk, the receiver uses the link-level > source address as well as the packet ID to identify blocks belonging to > the same packet. > > If a receiver fails to receive all of the blocks of a packet by the time > the packet number wraps around, it discards the incompletely-reassembled > packet. Taking this approach, no timers should be needed at the receiver > to detect fragment loss. We expect the transport layer (e.g., TCP) checksum > at the final IPv6 destination to detect mis-assembly that might be caused by > extreme misordering/delay during transit across the link. > > On links on which IPv6 header compression is being used, compression is > performed before fragmentation, and reassembly is done before decompression. > > ---------- > > Appendix II > > From: Peter Curran <peter@gate.ticl.co.uk> > Subject: Re: IPv6 MTU issue > To: deering@cisco.com (Steve Deering) > Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:50:34 +0100 (BST) > > Steve > > My problem was that moving the MTU close to 1500 would have an adverse > effect on the transition strategy. The current strategy assumes that the > typical Internet MTU is >576, and that sending an IPv6 packet close to the > minimum MTU will not require any IPv4 fragmentation to support the tunnel > transparently. The PMTU discovery mechanism will 'tune' IPv6 to use a > suitable MTU. > > If the IPv4 MTU is <= 576 then IPv4 fragmentation will be required to > provide a tunnel with a minimum MTU of 576 for IPv6. This clearly places > a significant strain on the tunnelling nodes - as these will normally be > routers then there will be a demand for memory (for reassembly buffers) > as well as CPU (for the frag/reassembly process) that will have an overall > impact on performance. > > This is an acceptable risk, as Internet MTU's of <= 576 are not too common. > > However, if the minimum MTU of IPv6 is increased to something of the order > of 1200-1500 octets then the likelihood of finding an IPv4 path with an > MTU lower than this value increases (I think significantly) and this will > have a performance impact on these devices. > > During the brief discussion of this matter in the IPNG session at Munich > you stated that MTU's less than 1500 where rare. I don't agree with this > completely - it seems to be pretty common practise for smaller 2nd and 3rd > tier ISP's in the UK to use an MTU of 576 for connection to their transit > provider. Their objective, I believe, is to 'normalize' the packet sizes > on relatively low bandwidth circuits (typically <1Mbps) to provide better > performance for interactive sessions compared to bulk-file transfer users. > > I think that before we go ahead and make a decision on an increased minimum > MTU for IPv6 then we should discuss the issues a little more. > > Incidentally, I am not convinced of the benefits of doing this anyway > (ignoring the issue raised above). With a properly setup stack the PMTU > discovery mechanism seems to be able to select a good MTU for use on the > path - at least that is my experience on our test network and the 6Bone. > > I appreciate that you are trying to address the issues of PMTU for multi- > casting but I don't see how raising the minumum MTU is going to help much. > PMTU discovery will still be required irrespective of the minimum MTU > adopted, unless we adopt a value that can be used on all link-layer technolo- > gies. > > I would welcome wider discussion of these issues before pressing ahead > with a change. > > Best regards > > Peter Curran > TICL > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > --------------------------------------------------------------------
- [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on draft-… Alissa Cooper via Datatracker
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Black, David
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Ron Bonica
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fred Baker
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fred Baker
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Warren Kumari
- [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in draft-… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joel Halpern
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Warren Kumari
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ron Bonica
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ron Bonica
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fred Baker
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Geoff Huston
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ron Bonica
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Fred Baker
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Fred Baker