IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation Considered Fragile

Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com> Mon, 27 August 2018 08:27 UTC

Return-Path: <touch@strayalpha.com>
X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FB80128C65; Mon, 27 Aug 2018 01:27:50 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.988
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.988 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=strayalpha.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cDVjzY1GSL5Q; Mon, 27 Aug 2018 01:27:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from server217-3.web-hosting.com (server217-3.web-hosting.com [198.54.115.226]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C3EF130E81; Mon, 27 Aug 2018 01:27:48 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=strayalpha.com; s=default; h=To:References:Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject:Mime-Version: Content-Type:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=1+R6fkV6Acl/0pb3sVR2HT+1Ij527aZqBNxaKOcTCfo=; b=B1lQ//7UY3pZmBTym+rnu4w5z 23vCploHUNM9eRzQuDO09SqcMSeJPxxv3dDlTr8nBMleuL/BLsiNw+FMvlcX8dKKI9/rkwbSghx6e PrJF1CRS1nWmmCm5XIBQ9pPrAfMITdViDlhE9fyWl1TCAfWxqUK5nxqTuVI+iOaZvi1tTHP22vMNe KQWm1x9gkYk7CfSQrVbQ0XVN2imBFzpsp400HuYT/LOz5D53cAnVKJgRAJtdkhv5eDGc4MWQMGbeT ww5SzsYAHO+ZTAdPBo6f2ca0hY3trsY3NrSys0BeOhJoLR924qw371TgFvtVLuTbGupxxqvLyJOnQ EZ1v+Kdvw==;
Received: from cpe-172-250-240-132.socal.res.rr.com ([172.250.240.132]:51221 helo=[192.168.1.16]) by server217.web-hosting.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from <touch@strayalpha.com>) id 1fuCsC-003vw1-2P; Mon, 27 Aug 2018 04:27:45 -0400
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail-59571159-7F7B-4554-BCCE-BB8FE9A82592"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)
From: Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>
X-Mailer: iPad Mail (15G77)
In-Reply-To: <AFF8E4CF-FFB3-460D-BF21-F74B9C37BD23@employees.org>
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 01:27:43 -0700
Cc: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>, int-area <int-area@ietf.org>, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>, intarea-chairs@ietf.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-Id: <4840E0E6-FA33-4969-A75B-B58A6F0C379E@strayalpha.com>
References: <CALx6S36Ef3t7Axmx9hg994DHpVM=NdW-7ygf89E==gL4XKrkQg@mail.gmail.com> <5E21B3C1-0420-404C-9824-9B7E5A850BC5@employees.org> <CALx6S34qmKngi3hK_PVrJA1DMa5kfaLww3jfqRKN=up5v0Y0Ww@mail.gmail.com> <8D23C8B1-C2DA-4A8B-A2BE-8CCF6233B3A5@strayalpha.com> <D1D5EDCE-7C43-4CD8-947C-AA43CDB18892@employees.org> <1B04E207-08FA-400F-BBED-67379FEFD64E@strayalpha.com> <137751A3-7C52-4CCF-AE9C-B99C4A85EFC1@strayalpha.com> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1808021749020.19688@uplift.swm.pp.se> <CALx6S35kw2dodgG2L3LE3A5y8RYEXy6izQWgrQTwg7-yPqpzOg@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1808030857370.19688@uplift.swm.pp.se> <20180825032457.ol5rlrr7h2kqi6px@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <CALx6S35-n_ROEZv0NReVEWTUhnyc25SNJb5DaeqtnxPAPk6QjQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAF493D3-37A2-4A89-BA88-81567E5B88F1@huitema.net> <538A6193-2BD7-4E72-BD28-736B81F97B33@strayalpha.com> <CALx6S34uKA9XYP8Mguw1bf+nby_NXWA1GQk88C+Dmtw56ZxF8g@mail.gmail.com> <0E93CA77-907B-4EBE-BC13-27BFF78AD25C@strayalpha.com> <A9F9EFD0-D246-4883-8462-0074280559 A9@employees.org> <E9BA9506-54B9-4003-A821-0F9EBA1C9D5D@strayalpha.com> <AFF8E4CF-FFB3-460D-BF21-F74B9C37BD23@employees.org>
To: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0
X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report
X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server217.web-hosting.com
X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org
X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12]
X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - strayalpha.com
X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server217.web-hosting.com: authenticated_id: touch@strayalpha.com
X-Authenticated-Sender: server217.web-hosting.com: touch@strayalpha.com
X-Source:
X-Source-Args:
X-Source-Dir:
X-From-Rewrite: unmodified, already matched
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/int-area/muxgPo3yPxNXkT3Hzze0tz-41oM>
Subject: Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation Considered Fragile
X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List <int-area.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/int-area>, <mailto:int-area-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/int-area/>
List-Post: <mailto:int-area@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:int-area-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area>, <mailto:int-area-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 08:27:50 -0000


> On Aug 26, 2018, at 11:55 PM, Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org> wrote:
> 
> Joe,
> 
>>> 
>>>> On 26 Aug 2018, at 23:12, Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> As I’ve mentioned, there are rules under which a NAT is a valid Internet device, but it is simply not just a router.
>>> 
>>> If there really was, can you point to where those rules are? Describing the behavior of the host stack and applications?
>> 
>> The principles are described and explained here:
>> 
>> Touch, J: Middlebox Models Compatible with the Internet. USC/ISI (ISI-TR-711), 2016. (
>> 
> 
> I don’t want to dismiss this completely, but it hand waves over how applications are supposed to work in this new Internet architecture. 
> You can define your way out of breaking end-to-end, but that doesn’t mean you can ignore all the issues of NAT traversal.

You’ve missed the point - if the middleboxes describe behave as required, apps do not need to change. They work as they would in an Internet without those boxes.

Joe

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email