Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-16: (with COMMENT)
Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> Wed, 04 September 2019 15:29 UTC
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From: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>
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Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2019 08:29:20 -0700
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Cc: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>, Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>, "int-area@ietf.org" <int-area@ietf.org>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, Joel Halpern <joel.halpern@ericsson.com>, "draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile@ietf.org>, "intarea-chairs@ietf.org" <intarea-chairs@ietf.org>
To: "Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
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Subject: Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-16: (with COMMENT)
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Fred, > On Sep 4, 2019, at 7:23 AM, Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > > Bob, > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bob Hinden [mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2019 5:08 PM >> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> >> Cc: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>; Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>; int-area@ietf.org; IESG <iesg@ietf.org>; Joel >> Halpern <joel.halpern@ericsson.com>; draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile@ietf.org; intarea-chairs@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-16: (with COMMENT) >> >> Fred, >> >>> On Sep 3, 2019, at 2:10 PM, Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: >>> >>> Bob, >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Bob Hinden [mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2019 1:57 PM >>>> To: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> >>>> Cc: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>; Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>; int-area@ietf.org; IESG >>>> <iesg@ietf.org>; Joel Halpern <joel.halpern@ericsson.com>; draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile@ietf.org; intarea-chairs@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-16: (with COMMENT) >>>> >>>> Tom, >>>> >>>>> On Sep 3, 2019, at 1:33 PM, Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Bob, >>>>> >>>>> I agree with Fred. Note, the very first line of the introduction: >>>>> >>>>> "Operational experience [Kent] [Huston] [RFC7872] reveals that IP >>>>> fragmentation introduces fragility to Internet communication”. >>>> >>>> Yes, that text in in the first paragraph of the Introduction >>>>> >>>>> This attempts to frame fragmentation as being generally fragile with >>>>> supporting references. However, there was much discussion on the list >>>>> about operational experience that demonstrates fragmentation is not >>>>> fragile. In particular, we know that fragmentation with tunnels is >>>>> productively deployed and has been for quite some time. So that is the >>>>> counter argument to the general statement that fragmentation is >>>>> fragile. With the text about tunneling included in the introduction I >>>>> believe that was sufficient balance of the arguments, but without the >>>>> text the reader could be led to believe that fragmentation is fragile >>>>> for everyone all the time which is simply not true and would be >>>>> misleading. >>>> >>>> Yes, but we are discussing some text from the Introduction that to my read didn’t say anything useful so I removed it. The >> substantive >>>> text about tunneling in in Section 3.5. The Introduction, is just the introduction. The text was: >>>> >>>> This document acknowledges that in some cases, packets must be >>>> fragmented within IP-in-IP tunnels [I-D.ietf-intarea-tunnels]. >>>> Therefore, this document makes no additional recommendations >>>> regarding IP-in-IP tunnels. >>> >>> Yes - good text that should be retained. >>> >>>> Why is that more useful than what is in 3.5? If it’s not making a recommendation, why call this out in the introduction. There are lot >> of >>>> other things it doesn’t make recommendations about that aren’t in the Introduction either. >>> >>> Because it sets a more appropriate tone and lets the reader know from the onset that >>> fragmentation and encapsulation go hand in hand. And tunnel fragmentation avoids the >>> issues raised by others in this thread. >> >> I don’t know how to evaluate “tone” in an IETF specification. >> >> How about if I move this text to section 5.3? I think that’s better than in the Introduction. >> >> The section would be: >> >> 5.3. Packet-in-Packet Encapsulations >> >> This document acknowledges that in some cases, packets must be >> fragmented within IP-in-IP tunnels. Therefore, this document makes no >> additional recommendations regarding IP-in-IP tunnels. >> >> In this document, packet-in-packet encapsulations include IP-in-IP >> [RFC2003], Generic Routing Encapsulation (GRE) [RFC2784], GRE-in-UDP >> [RFC8086] and Generic Packet Tunneling in IPv6 [RFC2473]. [RFC4459] >> describes fragmentation issues associated with all of the above- >> mentioned encapsulations. >> >> The fragmentation strategy described for GRE in [RFC7588] has been >> deployed for all of the above-mentioned encapsulations. This >> strategy does not rely on IP fragmentation except in one corner case. >> (see Section 3.3.2.2 of RFC 7588 and Section 7.1 of RFC 2473). >> Section 3.3 of [RFC7676] further describes this corner case. >> >> See [I-D.ietf-intarea-tunnels] for further discussion. > > Paragraph #1 beginning "This document acknowledges" looks good, but then > why include paragraphs #2 and #3 since 'intarea-tunnels' is the place to discuss > IP-in-IP encapsulation. So, why not shorten Section 5.3 and have it as simply: > > 5.3. Packet-in-Packet Encapsulations > > This document acknowledges that in some cases, packets must be > fragmented within IP-in-IP tunnels. Therefore, this document makes no > additional recommendations regarding IP-in-IP tunnels. > See [I-D.ietf-intarea-tunnels] for further discussion. > This text has been through IETF last call and IESG review, and as far as I can tell is factually correct. Unless we want to repeat that, better to not remove it in my view. I will plan to include the new first paragraph in the next version. Bob
- [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on draft-… Alissa Cooper via Datatracker
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Black, David
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Ron Bonica
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fred Baker
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fred Baker
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Warren Kumari
- [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in draft-… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joel Halpern
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Warren Kumari
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ron Bonica
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ron Bonica
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fred Baker
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Geoff Huston
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ron Bonica
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Fred Baker
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Fred Baker