IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation Considered Fragile

Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> Thu, 30 August 2018 06:20 UTC

Return-Path: <huitema@huitema.net>
X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9627F130EEA for <int-area@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 29 Aug 2018 23:20:50 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.6
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EXOyMwPjRtNz for <int-area@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 29 Aug 2018 23:20:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com (mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com [138.201.61.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 678A1130EE6 for <int-area@ietf.org>; Wed, 29 Aug 2018 23:20:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from xsmtp03.mail2web.com ([168.144.250.223]) by mx114.antispamcloud.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from <huitema@huitema.net>) id 1fvGIp-000Ett-JX for int-area@ietf.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 08:20:43 +0200
Received: from [10.5.2.49] (helo=xmail11.myhosting.com) by xsmtp03.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from <huitema@huitema.net>) id 1fvGIn-0003SP-Oh for int-area@ietf.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 02:19:34 -0400
Received: (qmail 4548 invoked from network); 30 Aug 2018 06:19:30 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.105]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.56.42.28]) (envelope-sender <huitema@huitema.net>) by xmail11.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for <intarea-chairs@ietf.org>; 30 Aug 2018 06:19:30 -0000
To: Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>, Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>, int-area <int-area@ietf.org>, intarea-chairs@ietf.org
References: <CAF493D3-37A2-4A89-BA88-81567E5B88F1@huitema.net> <0A065EE6-463C-4C71-BF12-C0E5A1C51680@strayalpha.com> <20180826233350.kz3q6gzqbq36nn4r@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <810cea0d-809f-040d-bc79-7c7413cd99f2@strayalpha.com> <20180827023513.2bxjrk335al2lbvz@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <E02F3C36-ECE6-419E-A219-08A15AD98D13@strayalpha.com> <20180828220915.fpx5hi7nhl46ou6r@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <CALx6S35vbtYOiEx2opqSh1uq9rfgG5QHEQcb+ccWLMcwWZA-uQ@mail.gmail.com> <20180829002430.fojlqonvnqdrhw4z@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <af424b4b449c4a1459b69ed01a984e48@strayalpha.com> <CALx6S3563g___ZP03dD5+sV++ZH7U5yudqRX0Bf2744BbBxGgQ@mail.gmail.com> <2b6dd7006cca65525ac6240a8edffabb@strayalpha.com> <CALx6S37EiFo8C4K7fO=O0hNpStoaS6wBvM8jVowmJTQHW2=DHw@mail.gmail.com> <b40ed6c3fc32909e2df677cd999550dd@strayalpha.com> <CALx6S34WW4tj=UVmUBpREdeQ9Wshv=ZdTs3RLQLG9+nOr6ArjQ@mail.gmail.com> <11b0cc8e660ae288b283b6fb82f45b3b@strayalpha.com>
From: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Openpgp: preference=signencrypt
Autocrypt: addr=huitema@huitema.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBFIRX8gBCAC26usy/Ya38IqaLBSu33vKD6hP5Yw390XsWLaAZTeQR64OJEkoOdXpvcOS HWfMIlD5s5+oHfLe8jjmErFAXYJ8yytPj1fD2OdSKAe1TccUBiOXT8wdVxSr5d0alExVv/LO I/vA2aU1TwOkVHKSapD7j8/HZBrqIWRrXUSj2f5n9tY2nJzG9KRzSG0giaJWBfUFiGb4lvsy IaCaIU0YpfkDDk6PtK5YYzuCeF0B+O7N9LhDu/foUUc4MNq4K3EKDPb2FL1Hrv0XHpkXeMRZ olpH8SUFUJbmi+zYRuUgcXgMZRmZFL1tu6z9h6gY4/KPyF9aYot6zG28Qk/BFQRtj7V1ABEB AAHNJ0NocmlzdGlhbiBIdWl0ZW1hIDxodWl0ZW1hQGh1aXRlbWEubmV0PsLAeQQTAQIAIwUC UhFfyAIbLwcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEJNDCbJVyA1yhbYH/1ud6x6m VqGIp0JcZUfSQO8w+TjugqxCyGNn+w/6Qb5O/xENxNQ4HaMQ5uSRK9n8WKKDDRSzwZ4syKKf wbkfj05vgFxrjCynVbm1zs2X2aGXh+PxPL/WHUaxzEP7KjYbLtCUZDRzOOrm+0LMktngT/k3 6+EZoLEM52hwwpIAzJoscyEz7QfqMOZtFm6xQnlvDQeIrHx0KUvwo/vgDLK3SuruG1CSHcR0 D24kEEUa044AIUKBS3b0b8AR7f6mP2NcnLpdsibtpabi9BzqAidcY/EjTaoea46HXALk/eJd 6OLkLE6UQe1PPzQC4jB7rErX2BxnSkHDw50xMgLRcl5/b1bOwE0EUhFfyAEIAKp7Cp8lqKTV CC9QiAf6QTIjW+lie5J44Ad++0k8gRgANZVWubQuCQ71gxDWLtxYfFkEXjG4TXV/MUtnOliG 5rc2E+ih6Dg61Y5PQakm9OwPIsOx+2R+iSW325ngln2UQrVPgloO83QiUoi7mBJPbcHlxkhZ bd3+EjFxSLIQogt29sTcg2oSh4oljUpz5niTt69IOfZx21kf29NfDE+Iw56gfrxI2ywZbu5o G+d0ZSp0lsovygpk4jK04fDTq0vxjEU5HjPcsXC4CSZdq5E2DrF4nOh1UHkHzeaXdYR2Bn1Y wTePfaHBFlvQzI+Li/Q6AD/uxbTM0vIcsUxrv3MNHCUAEQEAAcLBfgQYAQIACQUCUhFfyAIb LgEpCRCTQwmyVcgNcsBdIAQZAQIABgUCUhFfyAAKCRC22tOSFDh1UOlBB/94RsCJepNvmi/c YiNmMnm0mKb6vjv43OsHkqrrCqJSfo95KHyl5Up4JEp8tiJMyYT2mp4IsirZHxz/5lqkw9Az tcGAF3GlFsj++xTyD07DXlNeddwTKlqPRi/b8sppjtWur6Pm+wnAHp0mQ7GidhxHccFCl65w uT7S/ocb1MjrTgnAMiz+x87d48n1UJ7yIdI41Wpg2XFZiA9xPBiDuuoPwFj14/nK0elV5Dvq 4/HVgfurb4+fd74PV/CC/dmd7hg0ZRlgnB5rFUcFO7ywb7/TvICIIaLWcI42OJDSZjZ/MAzz BeXm263lHh+kFxkh2LxEHnQGHCHGpTYyi4Z3dv03HtkH/1SI8joQMQq00Bv+RdEbJXfEExrT u4gtdZAihwvy97OPA2nCdTAHm/phkzryMeOaOztI4PS8u2Ce5lUB6P/HcGtK/038KdX5MYST Fn8KUDt4o29bkv0CUXwDzS3oTzPNtGdryBkRMc9b+yn9+AdwFEH4auhiTQXPMnl0+G3nhKr7 jvzVFJCRif3OAhEm4vmBNDE3uuaXFQnbK56GJrnqVN+KX5Z3M7X3fA8UcVCGOEHXRP/aubiw Ngawj0V9x+43kUapFp+nF69R53UI65YtJ95ec4PTO/Edvap8h1UbdEOc4+TiYwY1TBuIKltY 1cnrjgAWUh/Ucvr++/KbD9tD6C8=
Message-ID: <472d83e1-ea8f-2ac5-d0fb-fb1c0301f07d@huitema.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 23:19:30 -0700
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <11b0cc8e660ae288b283b6fb82f45b3b@strayalpha.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------AA477A9EE2C579BCA89A0CBB"
Content-Language: en-US
X-Originating-IP: 168.144.250.223
X-AntiSpamCloud-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com
X-AntiSpamCloud-Username: 168.144.250.0/24
Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=168.144.250.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com
X-AntiSpamCloud-Outgoing-Class: unsure
X-AntiSpamCloud-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.19)
X-Recommended-Action: accept
X-Filter-ID: EX5BVjFpneJeBchSMxfU5uperg3ejPaVNy9nzWrdhvt602E9L7XzfQH6nu9C/Fh9KJzpNe6xgvOx q3u0UDjvO3NBQ8jcSCSHwUCPl9o/grPBFCAKYcLuPfWMLWK7DDnqun9XexR1vyWLOPiMSTKjSSTg 127TqHZDxA/kZB41Rh901iU5yAsBk1OyzGhUzELBVUWZ2HLLiLGDb6v1+dFWV+76fEouuBW8B+eS 2SL6Wsexkzc3MaPwhyyXNpaCoQ64z42+kaWZdt6N+q59XgE2+qwAv3oSBTgngne2xb/kOTCix59s TWOZYSnnMjQ31wvFVPTxUfTKKOeFu/oqiIZGN/FetJA/5F1pVHDBKjqU+nYL996M5JPL2fcYnGGV GmpAi/vC1BlHag6z2d2hvLFbsq3CVSpNSdFHQf9jW00uowMntfDJFZDw1OAv/pAO6YoakF4izhw6 BW3DdphTm7z5x44H8BoK2IXcGIU0bnIkl0cAoyZct/6BnFHiQpBgmuf0sbAUMSGKAOSEpAAW86/I kXMcN6qoXPjenLhIOF1oeRZzporG9HJZIbV6k7eJ1GLrL/8V8Z0QqXhE5c/+XWIJmqDYAeas70qs OBnbynKl/PV5MWxVNMI4bXUdeS+SftW8w95cPWLsHiU6tFs2fFlaJqvT8rkEIZlJBQyYZt0shaPT PpuFqUUQz+mM8JAD4ECWCJhDXujnnN2/qud7Zq7cint3I6D3i41YYG+V6naQXDBf03lCFiT7hbbB SFhNJFV9+vk01tEmtpIwLgPFpxmutCG7X+t1TW39Ja77LGPpOwCd8C2YWKZp9B8mDZoz0NaqNOoG kB9ZAHmgRvVc/Z0HEHnw+9GetqVcVExkuBR77O7zL0ZrmIKZ0kUi8MQlv6kpbCB/BBd46AYXoop3 Vb1ozNbMOYhZVhWQD3muHGZxwbWWy+otarr+opjdZJqHfSEAiu0ibFDhbMA3/LztyUV6sbdvK/cK OEqlCIPGIfYQDNIxozJnBR/SX86E6e71QVjd
X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine6.antispamcloud.com
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/int-area/wsrVDmgnFL5lyzZPWNiswxPViSc>
Subject: Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation Considered Fragile
X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List <int-area.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/int-area>, <mailto:int-area-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/int-area/>
List-Post: <mailto:int-area@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:int-area-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area>, <mailto:int-area-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 06:20:51 -0000


On 8/29/2018 7:58 PM, Joe Touch wrote:
>
>
> On 2018-08-29 18:34, Tom Herbert wrote:
>
>>
>> Joe,
>>
>> End hosts are already quite capable of dealing with reassembly,
>  
> Regardless, middleboxes shouldn't be avoiding their own effort by
> creating work for others. A corollary to the Postal Principle should
> be "you make the mess, you clean it up". 

Joe's stubborn adherence to the letter of the RFC would be very nice if
the protocol police could somehow punish the merchants of NATs... The
whole discussion reminds me of Martin Thomson's draft, "use it or lose
it" (draft-thomson-use-it-or-lose-it-02). Martin is describing how
extension mechanisms that are not actually used get ossified away by the
deployment of middle-boxes. The same happened long ago with IP
segmentation. With NATs, applications cannot assume that reassembly will
work. With Firewalls, transports cannot assume that ICMP will work.

-- Christian Huitema

v2.2.0 | Report a Bug | By Email