Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile
"Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> Fri, 06 September 2019 14:13 UTC
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From: "Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>, "int-area@ietf.org" <int-area@ietf.org>
CC: Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, Joel Halpern <joel.halpern@ericsson.com>, "draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan <suresh@kaloom.com>, "intarea-chairs@ietf.org" <intarea-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile
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Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 14:13:09 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile
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This new text from Bob and Joe's discussion looks good to me. > -----Original Message----- > From: Int-area [mailto:int-area-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bob Hinden > Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2019 9:05 PM > To: int-area@ietf.org > Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>; IESG <iesg@ietf.org>; Joel Halpern <joel.halpern@ericsson.com>; draft-ietf- > intarea-frag-fragile@ietf.org; Suresh Krishnan <suresh@kaloom.com>; intarea-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile > > Hi, > > Joe and I talked off list. The result is below. Changes were to add a sentence in the forth and fifth paragraphs. > > Please review. > > Bob > > ---------- > > 6.1. For Application and Protocol Developers > > Developers SHOULD NOT develop new protocols or applications that rely > on IP fragmentation. When a new protocol or application is deployed > in an environment that does not fully support IP fragmentation, it > SHOULD operate correctly, either in its default configuration or in a > specified alternative configuration. > > While there may be controlled environments where IP fragmentation > works reliably, this is a deployment issue and can not be known to > someone developing a new protocol or application. It is not > recommended that new protocols or applications be developed that rely > on IP fragmentation. Protocols and applications that rely on IP > fragmentation will work less reliably on the Internet unless they > also include mechanisms to detect that IP fragmentation isn't working > reliably. > > Legacy protocols that depend upon IP fragmentation SHOULD be updated > to break that dependency. However, in some cases, there may be no > viable alternative to IP fragmentation (e.g., IPSEC tunnel mode, IP- > in-IP encapsulation). Applications and protocols cannot necessarily > know or control whether they use lower layers or network paths that > rely on such fragmentation. In these cases, the protocol will > continue to rely on IP fragmentation but should only be used in > environments where IP fragmentation is known to be supported. > > Protocols may be able to avoid IP fragmentation by using a > sufficiently small MTU (e.g. The protocol minimum link MTU), > disabling IP fragmentation, and ensuring that the transport protocol > in use adapts its segment size to the MTU. Other protocols may > deploy a sufficiently reliable PMTU discovery mechanism > (e.g.,PLMPTUD). The risks of IP fragmentation can also be mitigated > through the use of encapsulation, e.g., by transmitting IP fragments > as payloads. > > UDP applications SHOULD abide by the recommendations stated in > Section 3.2 of [RFC8085]. > > ————— > > > > > On Sep 5, 2019, at 6:18 PM, Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com> wrote: > > > > Although this is close, it misses the mark a little on the issue that > > the app may not actually have any control here - or know how or when to > > reduce its MTU. That might be a minor point to add, but is worth adding. > > This isn't just an app layer issue. > > > > Joe > > > > On 9/5/2019 4:45 PM, Ron Bonica wrote: > >> Bob, > >> > >> I think that this is a close to consensus as we are going to get. > >> > >> Ron > >> > >> > >> Juniper Business Use Only > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> > >> Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2019 2:29 PM > >> To: int-area@ietf.org > >> Cc: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>; Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>; IESG <iesg@ietf.org>; Joel Halpern > <joel.halpern@ericsson.com>; draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile@ietf.org; intarea-chairs@ietf.org; Suresh Krishnan > <suresh@kaloom.com> > >> Subject: Discussion about Section 6.1 in draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> Based on the discussion, I would like to propose to see if this will resolve the issues raised. It attempts to cover the issues raised. > >> > >> The full section 6.1 is included below, but only the last sentence in the second paragraph changed. > >> > >> Please review and comment. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Bob > >> > >> > >> > >> 6.1. For Application and Protocol Developers > >> > >> Developers SHOULD NOT develop new protocols or applications that rely > >> on IP fragmentation. When a new protocol or application is deployed > >> in an environment that does not fully support IP fragmentation, it > >> SHOULD operate correctly, either in its default configuration or in a > >> specified alternative configuration. > >> > >> While there may be controlled environments where IP fragmentation > >> works reliably, this is a deployment issue and can not be known to > >> someone developing a new protocol or application. It is not > >> recommended that new protocols or applications be developed that rely > >> on IP fragmentation. Protocols and applications that rely on IP > >> fragmentation will work less reliably on the Internet unless they > >> also include mechanisms to detect that IP fragmentation isn't working > >> reliably. > >> > >> Legacy protocols that depend upon IP fragmentation SHOULD be updated > >> to break that dependency. However, in some cases, there may be no > >> viable alternative to IP fragmentation (e.g., IPSEC tunnel mode, IP- > >> in-IP encapsulation). In these cases, the protocol will continue to > >> rely on IP fragmentation but should only be used in environments > >> where IP fragmentation is known to be supported. > >> > >> Protocols may be able to avoid IP fragmentation by using a > >> sufficiently small MTU (e.g. The protocol minimum link MTU), > >> disabling IP fragmentation, and ensuring that the transport protocol > >> in use adapts its segment size to the MTU. Other protocols may > >> deploy a sufficiently reliable PMTU discovery mechanism > >> (e.g.,PLMPTUD). > >> > >> UDP applications SHOULD abide by the recommendations stated in > >> Section 3.2 of [RFC8085]. > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Int-area mailing list > >> Int-area@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area
- [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on draft-… Alissa Cooper via Datatracker
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Black, David
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Ron Bonica
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fred Baker
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fred Baker
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Warren Kumari
- [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in draft-… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joel Halpern
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Warren Kumari
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ron Bonica
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ron Bonica
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fred Baker
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Geoff Huston
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ron Bonica
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Fred Baker
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Fred Baker