Re: [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci

Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> Thu, 25 April 2019 10:23 UTC

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From: Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 17:23:24 +0700
Message-ID: <CAKi_AEsFbqYNBYguucaUkoy65zZH+F=vhd+WOQgaTp5hsuBh3Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>
Cc: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>, "internetgovtech@iab.org" <internetgovtech@iab.org>, "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>, "nethistory@ietf.org" <nethistory@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci
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Dear All John, Hesham and All,


What are after such an "introductory" reading --such a grand image, such a
grand map...? -on the Internet architecture and governance...?
as we are trying to learn of those aspects by such reading with the help of
a set of knowledges on concept, discourse and history...?

Histories, historical stories, attempted above teach us: people struggled
by technology. At least we have an "enthusiasm" for what will come up
tomorrow, especially about our humanity and society regarding with
possibilities of the Internet as a kind of communication platform
--especially on aspects of it: architecture and governance...

But, there are perhaps lacks with these analytical readings --those design
and implementation-- being attempted... Here thus experts may come with
their suggestions...




Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>;
menulis:

> I actually have the same question ...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John C Klensin [mailto:john-ietf@jck.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:36 AM
> To: Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>;
> Cc: Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>;;
> internetgovtech@iab.org; architecture-discuss@ietf.org;
> nethistory@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance,
> Technical Work and Net History: A Speci
>
> Guntur,
>
> I've tried to following your multiple postings, but am getting more and
> more confused.  Yes, there are some broad principles that can be considered
> together to constitute an "Internet architecture".  Once one gets past
> extremely broad principles and down to details, I doubt that there is
> strong consensus in the community about many of the details of that
> architecture:
> there are other documents with different theories and some people would
> claim that some of the things that are said in some of the documents you
> have cited have not stood the test of time.
> Some of those principles interact with "Internet governance"; many,
> including questions about who should be in charge of various resources once
> one determines that someone, or some combination of actors, actually need
> to be, do not.  The mailing lists you are using are appropriate for
> discussions of those issues although I think the case for cross-posting to
> internetgovtech and architecture-discuss, much less the nethistory list,
> has yet to be made.
>
> But what I don't understand --and what is confusing me more with each
> posting from you-- is why you are posting these notes and
> what you are trying to accomplish.   Almost by definition, the
> readers of these lists know they exist and are out there.  Most such
> readers know, or knew once, what the lists are supposed to be for.  But
> almost everything I've read from you seems to be an explanation of the
> existence of an Internet architecture and/ or an Internet governance topic
> together with the existence and availability of the lists.
>
> Do you want something?  Do you intend to try to explain something to us
> that we don't know already?  If so, is that explanation likely to be
> actionable by the IETF or IAB and, if so, how.  And, of course, what is it?
>
> thanks,
>   john
>
>
> --On Thursday, April 25, 2019 08:16 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra <
> gsenopu@gmail.com>; wrote:
>
> > Dear All,
> >
> > The Internet architecture --the Internet protocols and their
> > designs-- are in situations among which is about its possible
> > inplementations enabled by such a governance(s). That is supposedly a
> > matter of the Internet Governance suitable with what was ever
> > officially published by the Internet Architecture Board related with
> > the release of internetgovtech@iab.org mailing list (2013)
> >
> > "to discuss topics regarding the intersection of Internet governance
> > and IETF technical work. In particular, this list will focus on issues
> > relating to Internet governance and regulation, including the 2014 ITU
> > Plenipotentiary Conference, and their potential to impact the future
> > of the Internet architecture".
> >
> > https://iab.org/activities/internet-governance/
> >
> > Regard,
> > Guntur Wiseno Putra
> >
> > Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>;
> > menulis:
> >
> >> Dear All,
> >>
> >> D. Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Model" (RFC 6250) referring IP
> >> service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791, RFC 1958, and section 2.1
> >> of RFC 4903 --while the document as a whole referring also to other
> >> RFCs.
> >>
> >> There are also other historians and futurologs ever analysed the
> >> Internet architecture examplified by
> >>
> >> RFC 3274 "The Rise of the Middle and the Future of End-to-End
> >> Argument: Reflections on the Evolution of the Internet Architecture"
> >> (Kempf, J.  & R. Austen Eds., Network Working Group-IAB, 2004)
> >>
> >> This document examined the development of end-to-end principles as it
> >> had been applied by the Internet over years.
> >>
> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274
> >>
> >> RFC 1827 "Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clark, D.
> >> et all., Network Working Group, 1991)
> >>
> >> This document represented an understanding that the Internet
> >> architecture as "the grand plan behind the TCP/IP protocol suite"
> >> envisioned its possible evolution as there had been increasing signs
> >> of strains on the fundemental architecture mostly stemming from the
> >> continued growth of the Internet.
> >>
> >>
> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1287
> >>
> >> Regard,
> >> Guntur Wiseno Putra
> >>
> >> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>;
> >> menulis:
> >>
> >>> Dear All,
> >>>
> >>> The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical
> >>> Work, and Net History" I said above "Individuals, or collective
> >>> individuals, are in an age of the
> >>> Internet...": as it concerns with "concept", "discourse" and
> >>> "history" is supposedly inspired by my personal experiences of
> >>> reading works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Felix
> >>> Guattari.
> >>>
> >>> To those have interests with the "supposed inspiration" are pleased
> >>> to visit these links below
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Foucault&x=7&y=8
> >>>
> >>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Deleuze%2C+Guattari&x=0&y=0
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Regard,
> >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
> >>>
> >>> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>;
> >>> menulis:
> >>>
> >>>> Dear All,
> >>>>
> >>>> The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are
> >>>> historians for the services of historical archives the provide.
> >>>> While a personal historian may deserve to mention, especially on
> >>>> the "Internet
> >>>> Architecture":
> >>>>
> >>>> D. Thaler documented aspects of Internet Protocol service model as
> >>>> they evolved over time .... Some guidence for protocol designers an
> >>>> implementers were also suggested...
> >>>>
> >>>> "RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011)
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250
> >>>>
> >>>> Regard,
> >>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
> >>>>
> >>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>;
> >>>> menulis:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Dear All,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture"
> >>>>> to Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message
> >>>>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet
> >>>>> Protocol" (J. Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those
> >>>>> obsolete and updates: which is about the name/title "Internet
> >>>>> Protocol" they have...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol
> >>>>> Standards: Internet Standards --of which there are ones do not use
> >>>>> terms "Internet Protocol" -- for examples "Transmission Control
> >>>>> Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", " Broadcasting Internet
> >>>>> Datagrams"...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regard,
> >>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
> >>>>> <gsenopu@gmail.com>; menulis:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Dear All,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" to
> >>>>>> Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message
> >>>>>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791:
> >>>>>> Internet Protocol" (J.
> >>>>>> Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and
> >>>>>> updates: which is about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they
> >>>>>> have....
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Regard,
> >>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
> >>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail.com>; menulis:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> There is a need for correction for the earlier message:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I
> >>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of
> >>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the latter
> >>>>>>> considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in
> >>>>>>> large scale...
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> It should be:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I
> >>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of
> >>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the first
> >>>>>>> considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in
> >>>>>>> large scale...
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Regard,
> >>>>>>> Gintur Wiseno Putra
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
> >>>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail.com>; menulis:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I
> >>>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of
> >>>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet"
> >>>>>>>> (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in
> >>>>>>>> relation with the Internet in large scale...
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Regard,
> >>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury <
> >>>>>>>> Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>; menulis:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC3439.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Hesham
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> *From:* Architecture-discuss
> >>>>>>>>> [mailto:architecture-discuss-b ounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
> >>>>>>>>> *Guntur Wiseno Putra *Sent:* Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM
> >>>>>>>>> *To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org;
> >>>>>>>>> nethistory@ietf.org
> >>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance,
> >>>>>>>>> Technical Work and Net History: A Speci
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Dear All,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Of the question "What is the Internet Architecture?"
> >>>>>>>>> mentioned in the earlier message:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles
> >>>>>>>>> of the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols and their
> >>>>>>>>> design: May this links helpful to get arrived there at related
> >>>>>>>>> archives ( as the text did not use any online source but
> >>>>>>>>> suppposedly paper ones as references)...:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name=
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> - https://www.rfc-editor.org/
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>   Here are  menus "Internet Standard", "Official
> >>>>>>>>>   Internet Protocol Standards", and "advanced search".
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Regard,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
> >>>>>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail.com>; menulis:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Dear All,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an age of
> >>>>>>>>> the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and
> >>>>>>>>> sensed by many ways --even when one said that s/he had just
> >>>>>>>>> eat a food which a receipt was gotten by communicating by the
> >>>>>>>>> Internet..
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Among others there are presences of "the Internet
> >>>>>>>>> Architecture", "Internet Governance and Technical Work" and
> >>>>>>>>> "Net History" as they represent interest-based mailing lists.
> >>>>>>>>> How could one get arrived into those matters (together) --such
> >>>>>>>>> a programmatic readership/learning: as sources and concepts
> >>>>>>>>> have history and discources collectives/net... ? Should we
> >>>>>>>>> imagine about information sources by making such a readership
> >>>>>>>>> based on the linkage between the three...? Thus we may say
> >>>>>>>>> about "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical
> >>>>>>>>> Works: a Net History" (to say "A Net History in Terms of The
> >>>>>>>>> Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Work)...?
> >>>>>>>>> --there would be a discourse map on the special readership
> >>>>>>>>> which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may
> >>>>>>>>> use search engines of each mailing list for related
> >>>>>>>>> interests...?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> To make an engagement with the programme should we go with
> >>>>>>>>> such tentative journeys considering parts of the special
> >>>>>>>>> readership...?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> For example:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> By considering the reasoning above:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we may
> >>>>>>>>> refer to (archival) sources
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> "RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Internet"
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996)
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> (Note:)
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> It was a snapshot record of the principles of the Internet
> >>>>>>>>> Achitecture intended for general guidance and general
> >>>>>>>>> interest...
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> It was updated by RFC 3439...
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the document RFC
> >>>>>>>>> 1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant
> >>>>>>>>> sources... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to
> >>>>>>>>> broader or other conceptual discourses on "governance and
> >>>>>>>>> technical work"
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Regard,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
>
>
>
>
>