Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web
Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> Sun, 13 July 2014 22:20 UTC
Return-Path: <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net>
X-Original-To: internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D27901A01C3 for <internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 13 Jul 2014 15:20:47 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: 1.819
X-Spam-Level: *
X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.819 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, MISSING_HEADERS=1.021, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RRDSdRqVCOFs for <internetgovtech@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 13 Jul 2014 15:20:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from server1.neighborhoods.net (server1.neighborhoods.net [207.154.13.48]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D99AA1A01BA for <internetgovtech@iab.org>; Sun, 13 Jul 2014 15:20:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by server1.neighborhoods.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD246118445 for <internetgovtech@iab.org>; Sun, 13 Jul 2014 18:20:42 -0400 (EDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-2.6.2 (20081215) (Debian) at neighborhoods.net
Received: from server1.neighborhoods.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (server1.neighborhoods.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id KYV2zAxQZ85A for <internetgovtech@iab.org>; Sun, 13 Jul 2014 18:20:32 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from new-host-3.home (pool-173-76-155-14.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [173.76.155.14]) by server1.neighborhoods.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BFD2B11842F for <internetgovtech@iab.org>; Sun, 13 Jul 2014 18:18:31 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <53C305B5.4020108@meetinghouse.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2014 18:18:29 -0400
From: Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:29.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/29.0 SeaMonkey/2.26.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
CC: internetgovtech@iab.org
References: <6.2.5.6.2.20140708142055.0d5fbb78@elandnews.com> <20140709161653.GM59034@mx1.yitter.info> <9B506E73B33873103AE5EC52@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <20140709171401.GB2935@mx1.yitter.info> <53BD843F.1070304@cs.tcd.ie> <53BD84BB.7000002@meetinghouse.net> <53BDA867.7090701@gmail.com> <53BE602F.7020108@firsthand.net> <53BE6384.5030504@cs.tcd.ie> <53BE69D2.9070509@firsthand.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20140711000259.0cc016e8@resistor.net> <53BFD828.3070007@firsthand.net> <53C06E7C.4010903@gmail.com> <CAD_dc6ihUvV8SDkmoc3fGHWoOoR6nFhRz-=tgCjKnuNvRO2JXw@mail.gmail.com> <53C0F1D9.3090400@cisco.com> <53C17B5C.4090600@abenaki.wabanaki.net> <C5750A628D4D973F3C44F6DC@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <53C1B2C6.40501@meetinghouse.net> <72F8472D-2913-4BEC-9260-6DAC7791BBF8@virtualized.org> <53C1E977.4050306@meetinghouse.net> <7D8B6314-F38B-4B49-A146-5AE59F371C14@virtualized.org> <53C2723A.7030101@meetinghouse.net> <C9F0DF8FAC4A66777E7B6C40@JcK-HP8200.jck.com>
In-Reply-To: <C9F0DF8FAC4A66777E7B6C40@JcK-HP8200.jck.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/internetgovtech/Q2nlN2wFHqwbswZWaGzwQPsLciQ
Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web
X-BeenThere: internetgovtech@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Internet Governance and IETF technical work <internetgovtech.iab.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.iab.org/mailman/options/internetgovtech>, <mailto:internetgovtech-request@iab.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.iab.org/mail-archive/web/internetgovtech/>
List-Post: <mailto:internetgovtech@iab.org>
List-Help: <mailto:internetgovtech-request@iab.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/internetgovtech>, <mailto:internetgovtech-request@iab.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2014 22:20:48 -0000
John C Klensin wrote: > Miles, > > I think what you (and a few others) are losing track of is that > there is both a legal contract and social contract involved in > this. The latter has existed much longer, long before ICANN > came in being. John, Thanks for the thoughtful note. I guess I'm just a bit more jaded about the strength of the social contract in the face of shifting legal contracts and economic considerations. Yes - the Internet operates, and operates pretty well, because of a web of social contracts and conventions - but.... my perception is that there has always been a near-invisible hand that enabled and supported the social contracts - right back to the days of the initial RFCs. If it weren't for the gentle, and sometimes not so gentle hands of the early DARPA and NSF program managers involved in the early days (and NASA, and DoE, ...) we could easily be living in a world of balkanized networks, and/or a world much more like that of the telcos and cable companies. In the early days, it was a matter of key personalities, some of whom controlled everyone's funding, that framed the cooperative governance style that has evolved for what has become global infrastructure (personally I give a lot of the credit to Bob Kahn, during his tenure as ARPANET PM, and Vint Cerf for the notion of transitioning IETF to ISOC stewardship). And, of course, John Postel, when it comes to what's become IANA. I'm a little less sanguine about how things might develop, now that the early players are getting a bit long in the tooth, and large pieces of both the network infrastructure and its supporting organizations have become "big business." And, of course, we have the growing focus of government regulators entering the fray. I see the NTIA contract as sort of the last legacy of a guiding hand that has nurtured and protected the social contracts that keep the net "working." And I see the transition as an opportunity for a lot of things to go wrong - whether by intent (traditional regulators getting their nose into the tent, repressive governments doing their things, business interests doing their thing) or accident. All going on in parallel with the wranglings over "network neutrality" work their way through the FCC and the courts. I worry that the sentiment of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" doesn't recognize that something really is shifting in the framework that has shaped Internet governance to date - and if we're not careful, a few years down the road we're going to be wringing our hands about details that we should have worried about today. I think it behooves us to lift up the hood and understand, in detail, the interplay between legal contracts, social contracts, and general understanding and cultural conventions - as we go into this transition. Regards, Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
- [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web S Moonesamy
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Michele Neylon - Blacknight
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web S Moonesamy
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web John C Klensin
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Lynn St.Amour
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Carsten Schiefner
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Carlos Martinez-Cagnazzo
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Christian de Larrinaga
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web S Moonesamy
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Christian de Larrinaga
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Avri Doria
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Eliot Lear
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Avri Doria
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web John C Klensin
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Dan York
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Lucy Lynch
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Eliot Lear
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Dan York
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Carlos M. Martinez
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web S Moonesamy
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web John C Klensin
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web John Springer
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Dan York
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Dave Crocker
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Lynn St.Amour
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Theresa Swinehart
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web S Moonesamy
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Avri Doria
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Avri Doria
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web S Moonesamy
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Christian de Larrinaga
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web S Moonesamy
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web David Conrad
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web S Moonesamy
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Eliot Lear
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web JFC Morfin
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web McTim
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web S Moonesamy
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web McTim
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web John C Klensin
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web David Conrad
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web David Conrad
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Eric Burger
- [Internetgovtech] Costs (Was: Re: Transition to t… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web John C Klensin
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Costs (Was: Re: Transition … Jari Arkko
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Costs (Was: Re: Transition … Peter Koch
- [Internetgovtech] Contracts, what problems we are… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Contracts, what problems we… Dave Crocker
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Contracts, what problems we… Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Contracts, what problems we… Dave Crocker
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Contracts, what problems we… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Contracts, what problems we… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Contracts, what problems we… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Contracts, what problems we… Dave Crocker
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Contracts, what problems we… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Contracts, what problems we… JFC Morfin
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Contracts, what problems we… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web John Curran
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Contracts, what problems we… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web John Curran
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web John Curran
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web JFC Morfin
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web John Curran
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Eric Burger
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Contracts, what problems we… S Moonesamy
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web John Curran
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Contracts, what problems we… Steve Crocker
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Contracts, what problems we… David Conrad
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Suzanne Woolf
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Contracts, what problems we… John Curran
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Contracts, what problems we… S Moonesamy
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web Eliot Lear
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Contracts, what problems we… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Contracts, what problems we… Dave Crocker
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Contracts, what problems we… S Moonesamy
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Transition to the web JFC Morfin
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Contracts, what problems we… Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Contracts, what problems we… John Curran