Re: [Internetgovtech] [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci

giorgio.simeoli@libero.it Fri, 26 April 2019 09:33 UTC

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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 11:33:03 +0200 (CEST)
From: giorgio.simeoli@libero.it
To: Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>, John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org, internetgovtech@iab.org, nethistory@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci
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Il 25 aprile 2019 alle 10.40 Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>; ha scritto:

I actually have the same question ...

-----Original Message-----
From: John C Klensin [mailto:john-ietf@jck.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:36 AM
To: Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>;
Cc: Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>;; internetgovtech@iab.org; architecture-discuss@ietf.org; nethistory@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci

Guntur,

I've tried to following your multiple postings, but am getting more and more confused. Yes, there are some broad principles that can be considered together to constitute an "Internet architecture". Once one gets past extremely broad principles and down to details, I doubt that there is strong consensus in the community about many of the details of that architecture:
there are other documents with different theories and some people would claim that some of the things that are said in some of the documents you have cited have not stood the test of time.
Some of those principles interact with "Internet governance"; many, including questions about who should be in charge of various resources once one determines that someone, or some combination of actors, actually need to be, do not. The mailing lists you are using are appropriate for discussions of those issues although I think the case for cross-posting to internetgovtech and architecture-discuss, much less the nethistory list, has yet to be made.

But what I don't understand --and what is confusing me more with each posting from you-- is why you are posting these notes and
what you are trying to accomplish. Almost by definition, the
readers of these lists know they exist and are out there. Most such readers know, or knew once, what the lists are supposed to be for. But almost everything I've read from you seems to be an explanation of the existence of an Internet architecture and/ or an Internet governance topic together with the existence and availability of the lists.

Do you want something? Do you intend to try to explain something to us that we don't know already? If so, is that explanation likely to be actionable by the IETF or IAB and, if so, how. And, of course, what is it?

thanks,
john

--On Thursday, April 25, 2019 08:16 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>; wrote:

Dear All,

The Internet architecture --the Internet protocols and their
designs-- are in situations among which is about its possible
inplementations enabled by such a governance(s). That is supposedly a
matter of the Internet Governance suitable with what was ever
officially published by the Internet Architecture Board related with
the release of internetgovtech@iab.org mailing list (2013)

"to discuss topics regarding the intersection of Internet governance
and IETF technical work. In particular, this list will focus on issues
relating to Internet governance and regulation, including the 2014 ITU
Plenipotentiary Conference, and their potential to impact the future
of the Internet architecture".

https://iab.org/activities/internet-governance/" rel="nofollow">https://iab.org/activities/internet-governance/

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>;
menulis:

Dear All,

D. Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Model" (RFC 6250) referring IP
service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791, RFC 1958, and section 2.1
of RFC 4903 --while the document as a whole referring also to other
RFCs.

There are also other historians and futurologs ever analysed the
Internet architecture examplified by

RFC 3274 "The Rise of the Middle and the Future of End-to-End
Argument: Reflections on the Evolution of the Internet Architecture"
(Kempf, J. & R. Austen Eds., Network Working Group-IAB, 2004)

This document examined the development of end-to-end principles as it
had been applied by the Internet over years.

https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274" rel="nofollow">https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274

RFC 1827 "Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clark, D.
et all., Network Working Group, 1991)

This document represented an understanding that the Internet
architecture as "the grand plan behind the TCP/IP protocol suite"
envisioned its possible evolution as there had been increasing signs
of strains on the fundemental architecture mostly stemming from the
continued growth of the Internet.

https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1287" rel="nofollow">https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1287

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>;
menulis:

Dear All,

The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical
Work, and Net History" I said above "Individuals, or collective
individuals, are in an age of the
Internet...": as it concerns with "concept", "discourse" and
"history" is supposedly inspired by my personal experiences of
reading works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Felix
Guattari.

To those have interests with the "supposed inspiration" are pleased
to visit these links below

https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Foucault&x=7&y=8" rel="nofollow">https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Foucault&x=7&y=8

https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Deleuze%2C+Guattari&x=0&y=0" rel="nofollow">https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Deleuze%2C+Guattari&x=0&y=0

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>;
menulis:

Dear All,

The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are
historians for the services of historical archives the provide.
While a personal historian may deserve to mention, especially on
the "Internet
Architecture":

D. Thaler documented aspects of Internet Protocol service model as
they evolved over time .... Some guidence for protocol designers an
implementers were also suggested...

"RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011)

https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250" rel="nofollow">https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>;
menulis:

Dear All,

As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture"
to Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message
April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet
Protocol" (J. Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those
obsolete and updates: which is about the name/title "Internet
Protocol" they have...

https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791" rel="nofollow">https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791

The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol
Standards: Internet Standards --of which there are ones do not use
terms "Internet Protocol" -- for examples "Transmission Control
Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", " Broadcasting Internet
Datagrams"...

https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards" rel="nofollow">https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
<gsenopu@gmail.com>; menulis:

Dear All,

As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" to
Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message
April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791:
Internet Protocol" (J.
Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and
updates: which is about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they
have....

https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791" rel="nofollow">https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
<gsenopu@gmail.com>; menulis:

Dear Hesham and All,

There is a need for correction for the earlier message:

The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I
missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of
"Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the latter
considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in
large scale...

https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt" rel="nofollow">https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt

It should be:

The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I
missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of
"Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the first
considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in
large scale...

https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt" rel="nofollow">https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt

Regard,
Gintur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
<gsenopu@gmail.com>; menulis:

Dear Hesham and All,

The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I
missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of
"Architectural Principles of the Internet"
(1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in
relation with the Internet in large scale...

https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt" rel="nofollow">https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury <
Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>; menulis:

I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC3439.

Hesham

*From:* Architecture-discuss
[mailto:architecture-discuss-b ounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
*Guntur Wiseno Putra *Sent:* Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM
*To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org;
nethistory@ietf.org
*Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance,
Technical Work and Net History: A Speci

Dear All,

Of the question "What is the Internet Architecture?"
mentioned in the earlier message:

Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles
of the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols and their
design: May this links helpful to get arrived there at related
archives ( as the text did not use any online source but
suppposedly paper ones as references)...:

Here are menus "Internet Standard", "Official
Internet Protocol Standards", and "advanced search".

Regard,

Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
<gsenopu@gmail.com>; menulis:

Dear All,

Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an age of
the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and
sensed by many ways --even when one said that s/he had just
eat a food which a receipt was gotten by communicating by the
Internet..

Among others there are presences of "the Internet
Architecture", "Internet Governance and Technical Work" and
"Net History" as they represent interest-based mailing lists.
How could one get arrived into those matters (together) --such
a programmatic readership/learning: as sources and concepts
have history and discources collectives/net... ? Should we
imagine about information sources by making such a readership
based on the linkage between the three...? Thus we may say
about "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical
Works: a Net History" (to say "A Net History in Terms of The
Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Work)...?
--there would be a discourse map on the special readership
which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may
use search engines of each mailing list for related
interests...?

To make an engagement with the programme should we go with
such tentative journeys considering parts of the special
readership...?

For example:

By considering the reasoning above:

To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we may
refer to (archival) sources

"RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Internet"

(Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996)

https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958" rel="nofollow">https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958

(Note:)

It was a snapshot record of the principles of the Internet
Achitecture intended for general guidance and general
interest...

It was updated by RFC 3439...

Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the document RFC
1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant
sources... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to
broader or other conceptual discourses on "governance and
technical work"

Regard,

Guntur Wiseno Putra

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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss" rel="nofollow">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss