Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam)
"Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Tue, 14 February 2017 09:57 UTC
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From: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: 'Stewart Bryant' <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, "'Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)'" <cpignata@cisco.com>
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Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 09:57:19 -0000
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Cc: "'Alvaro Retana (aretana)'" <aretana@cisco.com>, ioam@ietf.org, 'The IESG' <iesg@ietf.org>, 'The IAB' <iab@iab.org>, 'Stephen Farrell' <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam)
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My concern was about use of the in-situ OAM container for non-OAM purposes. Such as, to allow an application to coordinate the use of the payload data. Pending a conversation about whether that would be smart or stupid, I think that any in-situ OAM mechanism needs to be carefully ringed around with words that say what uses are unacceptable, and probably also words that carefully define where in-situ OAM bytes are and are not allowed to be added. I think we probably have (albeit implicit?) that in-situ OAM bytes are not allowed to enter the domain. We should probably also have that they can only be added/modified by "OAM applications" and not "data sources". However, thin end of wedge? Will an application (perhaps a VoIP application) not consider it legitimate to add in-situ OAM to get feedback on the behavior of the network for its voice calls? And if so, that opens the gates for any application to use in-situ OAM, and *that* opens the possibility of two end-point applications using the in-situ OAM mechanism to talk about *anything*. Adrian > -----Original Message----- > From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com] > Sent: 14 February 2017 09:45 > To: Carlos Pignataro (cpignata); Adrian Farrel > Cc: Alvaro Retana (aretana); ioam@ietf.org; The IESG; The IAB; Stephen Farrell > Subject: Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) > > > > On 10/02/2017 15:19, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) wrote: > >> On Feb 10, 2017, at 9:58 AM, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote: > >> > >>>>> 1) I'm sure there are good things one can do with such > >>>>> marking, but it is very unclear to me how this proposal > >>>>> doesn't also fall afoul of all the privacy downsides of > >>>>> the SPUD/PLUS proposal. My understanding of those privacy > >>>>> downsides was that any generic/extensible marking scheme > >>>>> (whether of packets or transport connections/flows) could > >>>>> easily be abused in many privacy unfriendly ways. Note > >>>>> that I'm not claiming there is IETF consensus on that > >>>>> but I do claim it was a significant issue for SPUD/PLUS > >>>>> and would like to know why (and hope) it is not an issue > >>>>> here. Can someone help me understand what's different here > >>>>> so we avoid that same kind of mega-debate? > >>> Note that this proposal concerns itself with OAM information, and not as a > >>> generic container for all-things. It is not for application information. > >> Hmmm. > >> Once you define a channel to carry other stuff along with data packets it will > be used for purposes as yet undreamed of. > > I understand that — which is true pretty much for any new protocol field. > > > > I was curious to see if there were more specifics on the PLUS discussion beyond > this that particularly apply to IOAM. > > Adrian is correct here, but short of a breakthrough in cryptography that > allows the use of homomorphic encryption at speed with small payloads, > we sit on the horns of a dilemma between enhancing the legitimate > observability of a network for management purposes and enhancing the > observability for nefarious purposes. Perhaps the answer is to require > all phys to include encryption? > > Stewart
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Alvaro Retana (aretana)
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Alvaro Retana (aretana)
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Frank Brockners (fbrockne)
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
- [Ioam] R: Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Fioccola Giuseppe
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Ram Krishnan
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Ram Krishnan
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Ram Krishnan
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Joe Clarke
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Ioam] Internal WG Review: In-situ OAM (ioam) Stewart Bryant