From nobody Wed Sep 27 05:44:45 2023 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipfix@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipfix@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A352C14CEFC; Wed, 27 Sep 2023 05:44:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.185 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.185 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.091, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, SUBJ_BRKN_WORDNUMS=1, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZrE8qgLtVi_r; Wed, 27 Sep 2023 05:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 39D93C1524C8; Wed, 27 Sep 2023 05:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frapeml500001.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.206]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4Rwbsb3ZGFz6J9Hn; Wed, 27 Sep 2023 20:44:35 +0800 (CST) Received: from [10.81.223.45] (10.81.223.45) by frapeml500001.china.huawei.com (7.182.85.94) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2507.31; Wed, 27 Sep 2023 14:44:32 +0200 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------MetrQXdcYQBJX0srs0RE2PDN" Message-ID: <180d4325-99a9-4b94-9e7d-9cc4a0a7aa6c@huawei.com> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2023 14:44:27 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.15.1 Content-Language: en-GB To: Andrew Feren , "Aitken, Paul" , "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , opsawg CC: "ipfix@ietf.org" References: From: Benoit Claise In-Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: [10.81.223.45] X-ClientProxiedBy: dggems701-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.178) To frapeml500001.china.huawei.com (7.182.85.94) X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [IPFIX] draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-fixes: tcpOptions/ipv4Options bit mappings X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2023 12:44:44 -0000 --------------MetrQXdcYQBJX0srs0RE2PDN Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Andrew, On 9/27/2023 2:30 PM, Andrew Feren wrote: > > Hi Paul, > > I’m coming in a little late on this, but I took a few days to scan the > many thousands of pcaps I’ve collected from customers over the last 20 > years and look at existing exporter and collector implementations that > I have access too.  Based on what I have found there may be no > complaints because no one has implemented it.  I was unable to find a > single use of either ipv4Options(208) or tcpOptions(209) in the wild.  > Looking at the RFCs and errata it is hard to see how anyone could have > implemented these IEs without many questions. > Many thanks for the investigation. This is very useful. > > I asked myself how I would have implemented this if I had to make a > decision based on what exists and came to the same conclusions you did > in > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipfix/v9ywSgTeYzataQnhMG-x7SxLo0U/. > If others reach the same conclusions my inclination is to make a 3^rd > and, hopefully final, errata attempt.  As a collector developer I’m > sympathetic to the option to deprecate these IEs and try again, but I > feel like a careful errata may be OK in this case. > Exactly my thoughts. Regards, Benoit > > -Andrew > > *From: *IPFIX on behalf of Aitken, Paul > > *Date: *Thursday, September 21, 2023 at 4:55 PM > *To: *mohamed.boucadair@orange.com , > opsawg , Benoit Claise > *Cc: *ipfix@ietf.org > *Subject: *Re: [IPFIX] draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-fixes: > tcpOptions/ipv4Options bit mappings > > [EXTERNAL] CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the > organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you > recognize the sender and know the content is safe. > > Med, no-one else has reported problems with these elements in the last > 15 years. So what do you want to achieve? > > We should not update the registry without first understanding what has > already been implemented. The best we can hope for is that existing > implementations show consensus on the encoding. If so, then we should > ensure that the IPFIX registry and errata align with the implementations. > > If there's no consensus then it would be better to create new elements > and deprecate the existing ones. But it's not worth creating new > elements unless they would be broadly deployed. > > P. > > On 20/09/2023 15:12, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > > Hi Paul, all, > > I digged into ipfix archives to see the discussion that happened > around these errata and when scrolling I found this message: > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipfix/v9ywSgTeYzataQnhMG-x7SxLo0U/ > [mailarchive.ietf.org] > > but no follow-up. > > This confirms my initial assessment that a fix is needed. > > Cheers, > > Med > > *De :*BOUCADAIR Mohamed INNOV/NET > *Envoyé :* mardi 19 septembre 2023 15:02 > *À :* 'Aitken, Paul' > ; opsawg > ; Benoit Claise > > *Objet :* RE: draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-fixes: > tcpOptions/ipv4Options bit mappings > > Hi Paul, > > Yes, that’s what I was referring to in my previous messages when I > said “FWIW, (1) is what was followed in RFC5102 but changed since > then by errata.”. > > I’m having trouble with that errata as I don’t understand why the > reversal was only made at the octet level and not the full IE + > how to link that with “Option number X is mapped to bit X”. > > Thank you. > > Cheers, > > Med > > *De :*Aitken, Paul > *Envoyé :* mardi 19 septembre 2023 12:13 > *À :* BOUCADAIR Mohamed INNOV/NET ; > opsawg ; Benoit Claise > *Objet :* Re: draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-fixes: > tcpOptions/ipv4Options bit mappings > > Med, this figure originally appeared in section 5.8.8 of > draft-ietf-ipfix-info-13, -14, and RFC 5102 with the bits in this > order: > >               0     1     2     3     4     5     6     7 > >           +-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ > >           |   0 |   1 |   2 |   3 |   4 |   5 |   6 |   7 |  ... > >           +-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ > > > The bits were reversed by this errata: > https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid2946 [rfc-editor.org] > > > Also see https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid1739 > [rfc-editor.org] > > > P. > > On 19/09/2023 09:49, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > > Hi all, > > The description of these IEs says that “Options are mapped to > bits according to their option numbers. Option number X is > mapped to bit X”, however the drawing does not reflect that > (tcpOptions): > > 0     1     2     3     4     5     6     7 > > +-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ > > |   7 |   6 |   5 |   4 |   3 |   2 |   1 | 0 |  ... > > +-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ > > 8     9    10    11    12    13    14    15 > > +-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ > > ... |  15 |  14 |  13 |  12 |  11 |  10 |   9 | 8 |... > > +-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ > > 16    17    18    19    20    21    22    23 > > +-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ > > ... |  23 |  22 |  21 |  20 |  19 |  18 |  17 | 16 |... > > +-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ > > . . . > > 56    57    58    59    60    61    62    63 > > +-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ > > ... |  63 |  62 |  61 |  60 |  59 |  58 |  57 | 56 | > > +-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ > > I suspect that the confusion is rooted in the interpretation > of “bit X”: as (1) “bit position X” or the resulting (2) > “binary value”: > > 1. If (1) is followed, then bit#0 would be mapped to option > 0, bit#1 to option 1, and so on. This logic is followed, > e.g., for ipv6ExtensionHeaders. > 2. If (2) is followed, then bit#63 would be mapped to option > 0, bit#62 to option 1, and so on. > > In both cases, the drawing is not aligned with the narrative > text. We may either consider updating the drawing or the text. > > Which change is likely to have less impact on existing > implementations? FWIW, (1) is what was followed in RFC5102 but > changed since then by errata. > > Thank you. > > Cheers, > > Med > > ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. > > > > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; > > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. > > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. > > Thank you. > > ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. > > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; > > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. > > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. > > Thank you. > > This email message and any attachments are confidential. If you are > not the intended recipient, please immediately reply to the sender and > delete the message from your email system. Thank you. --------------MetrQXdcYQBJX0srs0RE2PDN Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Andrew,

On 9/27/2023 2:30 PM, Andrew Feren wrote:

Hi Paul,

 

I’m coming in a little late on this, but I took a few days to scan the many thousands of pcaps I’ve collected from customers over the last 20 years and look at existing exporter and collector implementations that I have access too.  Based on what I have found there may be no complaints because no one has implemented it.  I was unable to find a single use of either ipv4Options(208) or tcpOptions(209) in the wild.  Looking at the RFCs and errata it is hard to see how anyone could have implemented these IEs without many questions.

Many thanks for the investigation. This is very useful.

 

I asked myself how I would have implemented this if I had to make a decision based on what exists and came to the same conclusions you did in https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipfix/v9ywSgTeYzataQnhMG-x7SxLo0U/.  If others reach the same conclusions my inclination is to make a 3rd and, hopefully final, errata attempt.  As a collector developer I’m sympathetic to the option to deprecate these IEs and try again, but I feel like a careful errata may be OK in this case.

Exactly my thoughts.

Regards, Benoit

 

-Andrew

 

From: IPFIX <ipfix-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Aitken, Paul <paitken=40ciena.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Thursday, September 21, 2023 at 4:55 PM
To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, opsawg <opsawg@ietf.org>, Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
Cc: ipfix@ietf.org <ipfix@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [IPFIX] draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-fixes: tcpOptions/ipv4Options bit mappings

[EXTERNAL] CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

 

Med, no-one else has reported problems with these elements in the last 15 years. So what do you want to achieve?

We should not update the registry without first understanding what has already been implemented. The best we can hope for is that existing implementations show consensus on the encoding. If so, then we should ensure that the IPFIX registry and errata align with the implementations.

If there's no consensus then it would be better to create new elements and deprecate the existing ones. But it's not worth creating new elements unless they would be broadly deployed.

P.

On 20/09/2023 15:12, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:

Hi Paul, all,

 

I digged into ipfix archives to see the discussion that happened around these errata and when scrolling I found this message:  

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipfix/v9ywSgTeYzataQnhMG-x7SxLo0U/ [mailarchive.ietf.org] but no follow-up.

 

This confirms my initial assessment that a fix is needed.

 

Cheers,

Med

 

De : BOUCADAIR Mohamed INNOV/NET
Envoyé : mardi 19 septembre 2023 15:02
À : 'Aitken, Paul' <paitken@ciena.com>; opsawg <opsawg@ietf.org>; Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
Objet : RE: draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-fixes: tcpOptions/ipv4Options bit mappings

 

Hi Paul,

 

Yes, that’s what I was referring to in my previous messages when I said “FWIW, (1) is what was followed in RFC5102 but changed since then by errata.”.

 

I’m having trouble with that errata as I don’t understand why the reversal was only made at the octet level and not the full IE + how to link that with “Option number X is mapped to bit X”.

 

Thank you.

 

Cheers,

Med

 

De : Aitken, Paul <paitken@ciena.com>
Envoyé : mardi 19 septembre 2023 12:13
À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed INNOV/NET <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>; opsawg <opsawg@ietf.org>; Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com>
Objet : Re: draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-fixes: tcpOptions/ipv4Options bit mappings

 

Med, this figure originally appeared in section 5.8.8 of draft-ietf-ipfix-info-13, -14, and RFC 5102 with the bits in this order:

              0     1     2     3     4     5     6     7
          +-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
          |   0 |   1 |   2 |   3 |   4 |   5 |   6 |   7 |  ...
          +-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+


The bits were reversed by this errata: https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid2946 [rfc-editor.org]

Also see https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid1739 [rfc-editor.org]

P.

On 19/09/2023 09:49, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:

Hi all,

 

The description of these IEs says that “Options are mapped to bits according to their option numbers. Option number X is mapped to bit X”, however the drawing does not reflect that (tcpOptions):

 

        0     1     2     3     4     5     6     7

    +-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+

    |   7 |   6 |   5 |   4 |   3 |   2 |   1 |   0 |  ...

    +-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+

 

        8     9    10    11    12    13    14    15

    +-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+

... |  15 |  14 |  13 |  12 |  11 |  10 |   9 |   8 |...

    +-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+

 

       16    17    18    19    20    21    22    23

    +-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+

... |  23 |  22 |  21 |  20 |  19 |  18 |  17 |  16 |...

    +-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+

 

                          . . .

 

       56    57    58    59    60    61    62    63

    +-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+

... |  63 |  62 |  61 |  60 |  59 |  58 |  57 |  56 |

    +-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+

 

I suspect that the confusion is rooted in the interpretation of “bit X”: as (1) “bit position X” or the resulting (2) “binary value”:

  1. If (1) is followed, then bit#0 would be mapped to option 0, bit#1 to option 1, and so on. This logic is followed, e.g., for ipv6ExtensionHeaders.
  2. If (2) is followed, then bit#63 would be mapped to option 0, bit#62 to option 1, and so on.

 

In both cases, the drawing is not aligned with the narrative text. We may either consider updating the drawing or the text.

 

Which change is likely to have less impact on existing implementations? FWIW, (1) is what was followed in RFC5102 but changed since then by errata.  

 

Thank you.

 

Cheers,

Med

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
 
This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.

 

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
 
This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.

 

This email message and any attachments are confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please immediately reply to the sender and delete the message from your email system. Thank you.

--------------MetrQXdcYQBJX0srs0RE2PDN--