Re: [IPP] What value do IPP Printers provide for "printer-name"?[EXTERNAL]

[wamwagner--- via ipp <[e-mail]>]

Although I basically agree with  what has been expressed, I suggest there are two main points;

  1.
What was the intended use of this attribute and has that been satisfied?
  2.
Do we now envision a different use and what needs to be done to support that?

In response to the first point, refer to the definition ...a user friendly name to be entered by the administrator. Long before IPP became prevalent, printers had or were given names. These might have appeared on startup or cover pages, perhaps on the user interface after the printer was installed, and often were set via the printer Web page. I suggest that the "printer-name" attribute was intended to server that purpose.  It was not unique, or appropriate for automatic search; it was to be set by the administrator and no default value was specified. We should not be surprised by the variety of implementations; nor by the fact that this variety leaves the attribute unusable for any client function other than reporting the printer name. And the inconsistency in administrators entering the name left that use questionable since other mechanisms also gave the printer a name.  To fix this, we might suggest  a default value. (It already is defined as writable)

If, other the other hand, we envision a new   or additional function, we may need to ensure that the value is unique but still presumably user friendly. Depending on the  additional function, we might suggest appending the hardware ID code to the administrator entered value, or perhaps linking the value to some other unique  attribute.
Thanks,

Bill Wagner
________________________________
From: ipp <[e-mail]> on behalf of Uli Wehner via ipp <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2024 12:14 PM
To: ISTO-PWG Internet Printing Protocol workgroup discussion forum <[e-mail]>
Cc: Uli Wehner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [IPP] What value do IPP Printers provide for "printer-name"?[EXTERNAL]


Smith,



The “printer-name” if configurable and set by the administrator to something useful like chickenlips, or 3rd floor color printer, would be the most user-friendly information.



Not so much if blank or the same for every printer in the building.



Hostname could be meaningful if it is…. If the hostname is just the model name, there could still be duplication.



I feel if an administrator is there, and they deploy printers to the users, or configure them with user-friendly names, that should be highest priority. Only in the absence of that should defaults kick in, and be meaningful. Linux and CUPS going with auto discovered and configured printers are certainly functioning without an administrator and display a descriptive and unique name.



As far as displaying hostname, or IP on the display, while ours can certainly do that, many customers require that info to NOT be displayed.



Regards



Uli Wehner

ウリ・ヴェーナー

From: ipp <[e-mail]> On Behalf Of Kennedy, Smith (Wireless & IPP Standards) via ipp
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2024 10:08 PM
To: PWG IPP WG Reflector <[e-mail]>
Cc: Kennedy, Smith (Wireless & IPP Standards) <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [IPP] What value do IPP Printers provide for "printer-name"?[EXTERNAL]



Greetings all,



Sorry I was unable to be present for the discussion! (I'm on "vacation" helping my elderly father pack his apartment.)



I think we have a bit of a "chicken and egg" issue here. It may be that many clients have backed away from using "printer-name" because of the variability of the values printers provide. We can either deprecate that attribute / discourage its use, or we can try to push it towards some consistency. These others are much more specifically prescriptive but not always pertinent:



- printer-make-and-model

- printer-dns-sd-name

- printer-device-id



The scenarios a client might use these and "printer-name" include constructing the "default name" it might give a persistent "old-school" print queue (e.g., Linux, macOS, Windows). I personally have a habit of setting the DNS-SD Instance Name to something like "_Smitty ChickenLips_" and then I also set its .local domain name to a downsampled version of that: "smitty-chickenlips" so that I can identify it across client platforms regardless of how the queue gets set up.



The queue might be set up using a discovery protocol (DNS-SD etc.), or via a URI / hostname / raw IPv4 address / raw IPv6 address. One thing I'm concerned about is that, if the queue / printer is set up using one of the latter non-DNS-SD methods, how would the user know that that is the device's name? For instance, if I set up the queue with "192.168.1.37", and the user read that off a config page or the printer's control panel, they have acquired the IPv4 address but may never have seen "_Smitty ChickenLips_" or "smitty-chickenlips" or "smitty-chickenlips.local" before. So how will they connect the name to the device?



(I'd like to find a pathway to allow us to begin discouraging the use of raw IPv4 addresses, because DHCP leases can cause IPv4 address rotation, causing "printer offline" issues / stale queues, but in many semi-managed SMBs their networks' DNS infrastructure and multicast propagation is just not reliable enough so they fall back to IPv4 addresses with fixed leases, I guess.



So what I might suggest for IPP Implementor's Guide v2.1:



- For printers set up using DNS-SD, the default queue name ought to be "<DNS-SD Instance Name / printer-dns-sd-name>"

- For printers set up by the user providing a hostname, the default queue name ought to be "<hostname>"

- For printers set up by the user providing a raw IP address, the default queue name ought to be "<IP address>" (gross for IPv6, I know...but that's what the user provided...)

- Regardless of how the printer / print queue is set up, it seems like a model name should be presented as well. How this gets presented to the user is a UX issue that is out of scope.

- All printers ought to present their DNS-SD Instance Name and their hostname and/or their current IPv4 address on their control panel if they have one.



Thoughts?



Smith

/**
    Smith Kennedy
    HP Inc.
*/



On Jun 20, 2024, at 4:52 PM, Michael Sweet via ipp <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:



CAUTION: External Email

Summary of discussion at June 20, 2024 IPP workgroup conference call:

- Chris: Are we going to try to standardize this?
    - A: No, more curiousity
    - AirPrint/IPP Everywhere only require specific values for printer-make-and-model and printer-dns-sd-name
    - Bill: We might suggest a default? And recommend that the value be settable?
    - Uli: If there was a recommendation that would more strongly influence firmware design decisions
    - Mike: Not used by CUPS clients
        - Uli: Windows seems to default to using the printer-name value
        - Michael: I'll check
    - Ira: IIG2.0 says nothing about printer-name
        - Maybe file errata for IIG 2.0?
        - Mike: IIG can talk about client recommendations, IPP Everywhere 2.0 can talk about printer recommendations
    - Bill: What's the point of requiring printer-name if nobody uses it?
        - Mike: It has been required since IPP/1.0, and if we take a longer view maybe we could have something useful in the future?
- Mike: Maybe IPP Everywhere 2.0 can make some recommendations/requirements
    - Bill: Suggest defaults
    - Mike: Also require it to be settable (EWS, Console, and/or Set-Printer-Attributes), not blank and not the resource path, etc. from the URI


> On Jun 20, 2024, at 10:08 AM, wamwagner--- via ipp <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>
> Hi Smith et al,
>
> For KonicaMinolta MFPs, the default value of "printer-name" is left blank. But the User Guide, under  "Configuring basic settings for the IPP Printing"  instructs administrator to "Enter the printer name of this machine (using up to 127 characters)"
>
> Thanks,
>  Bill WagnerFrom: ipp <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> on behalf of Charles Armstrong via ipp <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 12:40 PM
> To: ISTO-PWG Internet Printing Protocol workgroup discussion forum <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
> Cc: Charles Armstrong <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
> Subject: Re: [IPP] What value do IPP Printers provide for "printer-name"?
>  Hi Smith,
> Here's the response from Canon:
>
>     • printer-name : Model name. The value is fixed (e.g. XK500 series, iR-ADV C3520)
>     • printer-make-and-model : Specific printer manufacturer and model name, and is fixed. (e.g. Canon XK500series, Canon iR-ADV C3520)
>     • printer-dns-sd-name : Bonjour Service Name
> Canon doesn't provide the hostname for the "printer-name" attribute.
> Best Regards,
> CharlesFrom: ipp <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> on behalf of Anton Thomasson via ipp <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2024 11:39 AM
> To: ISTO-PWG Internet Printing Protocol workgroup discussion forum <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
> Cc: Anton Thomasson <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
> Subject: Re: [IPP] What value do IPP Printers provide for "printer-name"?
>  Email was not sent from a Canon Network!
> Hi
>
> I too expect something human-useful here.
> Looking through my user-supplied attribute dumps, i see most printers doing something decent; mostly model-based.
>
> Some interesting outliers:
>     •
> Xerox WorkCentre 6515: "192.168.1.74"
>     • Various Brother printers: "" (empty string)
>     • Brother VC-500W: "print" (from /ipp/print presumably)
>     • EPSON SC-P900: "ipp/print"
> Br,
> Anton
>
> Den ons 12 juni 2024 kl 12:38 skrev Arun Holla via ipp <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>:
> Hi Smith,
>  For the Fiery Digital Front End servers, here are the IPP attribute values being populated:
>
>     • printer-name à ‘hostname’
>     • printer-make-and-model à Specific printer manufacturer and model name, and is fixed.
>     • printer-dns-sd-name à Bonjour Service Name concatenated with the last 3 octets of the Mac address (similar to Xerox). Default is the printer manufacturer and model name concatenated with the 3 octets of Mac address. This helps to keep it unique as it is used during the printer discovery. This value changes when the Bonjour service name is changed by the user.
>  Thanks,
> -Arun-
> From: ipp <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> On Behalf Of Rizzo, Christopher via ipp
> Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2024 4:44 AM
> To: Kennedy, Smith (Wireless & IPP Standards) <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
> Cc: Rizzo, Christopher <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; PWG IPP WG Reflector <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
> Subject: Re: [IPP] What value do IPP Printers provide for "printer-name"?
>  [EXTERNAL] Of course - I just thought of what happens when there is a name conflict with another device on the network, and tested it.
>  The conflict caused the registered name via MDNS to have "(2)" appended to it, but neither printer-name nor printer-dns-sd-name were updated to match.
>  So now I'm wondering if that is a bug. Is that a bug?  I think that is as I read PWG 5100.13 - printer-dns-sd-name at a minumum should have changed to match the MDNS (updated) registered name.
>  Chris
>  Christopher Rizzo
> Engineer II, Software Engineering
> Design & Development Engineering
>

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>  Xerox Corporation
> Virtual Office Employee
> 26600 SW Parkway Ave
> Wilsonville, OR 97070
>

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>

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>

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>   From: Christopher Rizzo <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
> Date: Tuesday, June 11, 2024 at 4:03 PM
> To: Kennedy Smith <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
> Cc: PWG Workgroup <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, Michael Sweet <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
> Subject: Re: [IPP] What value do IPP Printers provide for "printer-name"?
>  Yes, both are updated together.
>  And they are independent of the hostname
>  Chris
>  Christopher Rizzo
> Engineer II, Software Engineering
> Design & Development Engineering
>

<image007.png>

>  Xerox Corporation
> Virtual Office Employee
> 26600 SW Parkway Ave
> Wilsonville, OR 97070
>

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>

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>

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>

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>

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>   From: Kennedy Smith <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
> Date: Tuesday, June 11, 2024 at 3:49 PM
> To: Christopher Rizzo <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
> Cc: PWG Workgroup <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, Michael Sweet <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
> Subject: Re: [IPP] What value do IPP Printers provide for "printer-name"?
>  CAUTION:   This email originated from outside the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
> Thanks Chris! HP printers do something similar for the default DNS-SD Instance Name. If Xerox printers provide the same value for "printer-name" as "printer-dns-sd-name", if one changes then so does the other?
>  Smith
>  On Jun 11, 2024, at 3:21 PM, Rizzo, Christopher <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>  CAUTION: External Email
> The Xerox devices that I work on use the Bonjour advertisement name for IPP printer-name. I cannot speak for all Xerox products.
>
> The factory default for this is "Xerox <model> (<last 3 bytes of eth mac addr>)".
>
> Reason for the mac addr append is for customers that purchase more than one device they can be identified while avoiding the need for initial conflicts in name resolution.
>
> Chris
>
> Christopher Rizzo
> Engineer II, Software Engineering
> Design & Development Engineering
>
> <http://www.xerox.com/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.xerox.com/__;!!Iq1d47XejX0!mT-DTdIfliR5algAWX29SksxD1SrIi4fJtVsSIcbK5uDzMDTN5uRy-7r9v_BtmvM1dPqCTp_51E9l_0$>>
>
> Xerox Corporation
> Virtual Office Employee
> 26600 SW Parkway Ave
> Wilsonville, OR 97070
>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/xerox/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.linkedin.com/company/xerox/__;!!Iq1d47XejX0!mT-DTdIfliR5algAWX29SksxD1SrIi4fJtVsSIcbK5uDzMDTN5uRy-7r9v_BtmvM1dPqCTp_UblThDY$>> <https://www.youtube.com/user/XeroxCorp<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.youtube.com/user/XeroxCorp__;!!Iq1d47XejX0!mT-DTdIfliR5algAWX29SksxD1SrIi4fJtVsSIcbK5uDzMDTN5uRy-7r9v_BtmvM1dPqCTp__dfmMDg$>> <https://twitter.com/Xerox<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/twitter.com/Xerox__;!!Iq1d47XejX0!mT-DTdIfliR5algAWX29SksxD1SrIi4fJtVsSIcbK5uDzMDTN5uRy-7r9v_BtmvM1dPqCTp_4qLi5xE$>> <https://www.instagram.com/xerox/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.instagram.com/xerox/__;!!Iq1d47XejX0!mT-DTdIfliR5algAWX29SksxD1SrIi4fJtVsSIcbK5uDzMDTN5uRy-7r9v_BtmvM1dPqCTp_7IycfDY$>> <https://www.facebook.com/XeroxCorp<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.facebook.com/XeroxCorp__;!!Iq1d47XejX0!mT-DTdIfliR5algAWX29SksxD1SrIi4fJtVsSIcbK5uDzMDTN5uRy-7r9v_BtmvM1dPqCTp_q2K9hHo$>>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 6/11/24, 12:46 PM, "ipp on behalf of Michael Sweet via ipp" <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> on behalf [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>
>
> Smith,
>
>
> > On Jun 11, 2024, at 3:22 PM, Kennedy, Smith (Wireless & IPP Standards) <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> > ...
> > So the attributes involved in a discussion were:
> >
> > printer-name (RFC 2911 / 8011 - required)
> > printer-make-and-model (RFC 2911 / 8011 - recommended)
> > printer-dns-sd-name (PWG 5100.13 - required)
> >
> > The wording of "printer-name" makes it sound like it should be a unique name, not a model name...
>
>
> A printer by any other name would smell as sweet?
>
>
> From RFC 8011, "printer-name" is *not* a unique name, just a more friendly one:
>
>
> 5.4.4. printer-name (name(127))
>
>
> This REQUIRED Printer attribute contains the name of the Printer. It
> is a name that is more End User friendly than a URI. An
> Administrator determines a Printer's name and sets this attribute to
> that name. This name can be the last part of the Printer's URI, or
> it can be unrelated. In non-US-English locales, a name can contain
> characters that are not allowed in a URI.
>
>
> ________________________
> Michael Sweet
>
>
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