Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06
"Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com> Sun, 25 August 2019 20:50 UTC
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: Tom Herbert <tom@quantonium.net>, "OU, Heidi" <heidi.ou@alibaba-inc.com>, "draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>, Hugh Holbrook <holbrook@arista.com>, Anoop Ghanwani <Anoop.Ghanwani@dell.com>, Surendra Anubolu <surendra.anubolu@broadcom.com>
Thread-Topic: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06
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> On Aug 22, 2019, at 7:41 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Tom, > I think that the right solution to the problem of collecting telemetry > information as experienced by a data packet is to disconnect origination of > such information and transporting it. An iOAM packet may be used as a > trigger to collect the required data on a node. But the same packet doesn't > have to transport that information. That could be done either using > Postcard-based > Telemetry > <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-ippm-postcard-based-telemetry/> > or Hybrid Two-Step > <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-ippm-hybrid-two-step/>methods. > In that case, IP options provide sufficient space to encode the profile of > telemetry data to collect on a node. It is not about the size of the option. Please read, even using NOOP: http://conferences.sigcomm.org/imc/2004/papers/p336-medina.pdf https://www2.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/2005/EECS-2005-24.html http://www.employees.org/~dwing/ipoptions/ -- Carlos. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 12:34 PM Tom Herbert <tom@quantonium.net> wrote: > >> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 12:21 PM OU, Heidi <heidi.ou@alibaba-inc.com> >> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Frank, >>> >>> >>> >>> I also have a question on the encapsulation: If you can get a new >> ethertype for IOAM, why not insert IOAM data directly after layer2 MAC? >> instead of adding a GRE header for IOAM. >>> >> Because, we need a packet format that is compatible with existing >> network devices. In light of that, GRE is more preferable than using >> the new Ethertype directly in an Ethernet frame. There will also be >> similar arguments made for using GRE/IP, and UDP encapsulation over >> IP, and there was even a proposal to somehow insert the IOAM data >> immediately after the TCP header and before the TCP data. All of these >> are attempts to use protocol headers that are thought to be most >> palatable to intermediate devices and maximize the chances of >> efficient delivery. >> >> IMO, all of the aforementioned techniques have some problem or aren't >> clean (including the GRE solution). The best solution, and most >> architecturally correct and generic one, is an IOAM option in >> Hop-by-Hop extension headers. >> >> Tom >> >>> >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Heidi >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Vijay Rangarajan <vijayr@arista.com> >>> Date: Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 7:22 AM >>> To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com> >>> Cc: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>, Jai Kumar < >> jai.kumar@broadcom.com>, "draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org" < >> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>, Hugh >> Holbrook <holbrook@arista.com>, Anoop Ghanwani <Anoop.Ghanwani@dell.com>, >> "OU, Heidi" <heidi.ou@alibaba-inc.com>, Surendra Anubolu < >> surendra.anubolu@broadcom.com>, John Lemon <john.lemon@broadcom.com> >>> Subject: Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Frank: >>> >>> Thanks, I knew I was missing something. >>> >>> So basically what you are saying is - let's say we have a UDP packet, we >> are just going to stick in the GRE header and IOAM Header and Metadata >> in-between the original IP and UDP headers? >>> >>> >>> >>> So, the next protocol in the IOAM Header should indicate the L4 protocol >> - i.e UDP/TCP? >>> >>> Looking at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-weis-ippm-ioam-eth/, >> it actually defines the "Next protocol" in the IOAM header to be an >> ethertype value? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Vijay >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 6:22 PM Frank Brockners (fbrockne) < >> fbrockne@cisco.com> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Vijay, >>> >>> >>> >>> note that you don’t necessarily need to “tunnel” – you can just use the >> GRE header to sequence-in IOAM. >>> >>> >>> >>> Cheers, Frank >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Vijay Rangarajan <vijayr@arista.com> >>> Sent: Donnerstag, 22. August 2019 05:31 >>> To: Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <cpignata@cisco.com> >>> Cc: Jai Kumar <jai.kumar@broadcom.com>; >> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>; Frank >> Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com>; Hugh Holbrook < >> holbrook@arista.com>; Anoop Ghanwani <Anoop.Ghanwani@dell.com>; OU, Heidi >> <heidi.ou@alibaba-inc.com>; Surendra Anubolu < >> surendra.anubolu@broadcom.com>; John Lemon <john.lemon@broadcom.com> >>> Subject: Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks Carlos, for pointing me to the draft. >>> >>> >>> >>> Based on my understanding of the two drafts I have the following >> questions and concerns: >>> >>> If I understand correctly, to deploy inband telemetry, we would need to >> construct GRE tunnels coinciding with the IOAM domain? >>> GRE typically requires configuration to provision the tunnels. >> Provisioning and managing these tunnels and keeping these updated as the >> network grows/shrinks could be a significant overhead. >>> In order to get the benefit of telemetry, we are imposing a change in >> forwarding protocol/topology and configuration - which, I feel is not >> desirable. For example, a customer might have basic L3 routing enabled and >> the expectation would be for inband telemetry to work seamlessly, without >> having to revamp the network with GRE tunnels and such. This could be a >> significant barrier to deployment. >>> If sampling is used to select packets for performing IOAM encap, is the >> expectation that only sampled IOAM packets go through GRE encap? Or all >> data packets? >>> Due to network nodes inserting the IOAM data, the inner L3/L4 headers >> keep getting pushed deeper. I would imagine this gets challenging for ASICs >> to access these fields for hashing/load balancing. >>> Assuming only a subset of packets in a flow are subject to IOAM (based >> on sampling), how do we ensure these packets take the same network path as >> the rest of the packets in the flow? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Vijay >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 5:04 PM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) < >> cpignata@cisco.com> wrote: >>> >>> Hello, Vijay, >>> >>> >>> >>> Please see https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-weis-ippm-ioam-eth/, >> and the document this replaces. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Thumb typed by Carlos Pignataro. >>> >>> Excuze typofraphicak errows >>> >>> >>> 2019/08/21 6:35、Vijay Rangarajan <vijayr@arista.com>のメール: >>> >>> Hello all: >>> >>> Apologise if this has been previously discussed. >>> >>> In reading "draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06", I don't see mention of GRE >> encap. The draft, in fact in Sec 3, says the following - "The in-situ OAM >> data field can be transported by a variety of transport protocols, >> including NSH, Segment Routing, Geneve, IPv6, or IPv4. Specification >> details for these different transport protocols are outside the scope of >> this document." >>> >>> >>> >>> Is there another document, or a description somewhere, that talks about >> how IOAM is proposed to be carried in GRE? what would be the GRE payload, >> the GRE protocol type etc? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Vijay >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 7:52 AM Jai Kumar <jai.kumar@broadcom.com> >> wrote: >>> >>> Hello Frank, >>> >>> >>> >>> This is in context of our conversation at IETF105. My goal is to provide >> input and improve current IOAM data draft with the learnings we had with >> IFA deployment. >>> >>> This feedback is based on various customer interactions and concerns >> raised by them wrt IOAM. Each feedback is a longer topic and I am starting >> this thread as a summary email. This is just highlighting the issues and >> not yet proposing any solution. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Feedback 1: >>> >>> Section 4.2..1 Pre-allocated and Incremental Trace Options >>> >>> Pre-allocated and incremental trace option is 8Bytes long. This can be >> easily reduced to 4Bytes. >>> >>> There is a feedback that pre-allocated option is really not needed and >> either be removed or made optional. >>> >>> Given that deployments are sensitive to the IOAM overhead (specially in >> 5G deployments), it’s a 50% fixed overhead savings on a per packet basis. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Feedback 2: >>> >>> Section 4.1 IOAM Namespaces >>> >>> Namespaces should be treated as templates (similar to IPFIX template >> record formats). This is more flexible way of enumerating data. 64K >> namespace id is a very large namespace and can be reduced to 64 IANA >> specified name spaces. Separate private name space can be allowed instead >> of interleaving of opaque data in the IANA allocated name space as >> suggested in the current draft “opaque state snapshot”. >>> >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7011#section-3.4 >>> >>> >>> >>> Feedback 3: >>> >>> Section 4.2.1 Pre-allocated and Incremental Trace Options >>> >>> IOAM-Trace-Type: A 24-bit identifier which specifies which data >>> >>> types are used in this node data list. >>> >>> This is the most contentious of all. In the current proposal, as new >> data fields are added, there is a corresponding trace type bit need in the >> header. This essentially means that all possible data fields need to be >> enumerated. Given that we there are 64K names spaces allowed, I don’t see >> how we can fit all possible data fields in this 24bit vector. I know there >> was a suggestion of keeping last bit as an extension bit but it is still >> scalable and/or easy to implement in hardware. Besides this the data fields >> are not annotated/encoded with the data type, something like in IPFIX >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7011#section-6.1 >>> >>> >>> >>> Feedback 4: >>> >>> There is no version field in the data header and this will make >> interoperability challenging. Standard will evolve and headers bit >> definition and/or trace type will change and without version field HW will >> not be able to correctly handle the IOAM data headers. >>> >>> >>> >>> Feedback 5: >>> >>> Handling of TCP/UDP traffic using GRE encap is not acceptable. Here are >> some of the issues I can think of >>> >>> GRE encaped IOAM packets will traverse a different network path then the >> original packet >>> Not all packets can be GRE encaped to avoid the previous problem, due to >> wastage of network bandwidth (typically sampled traffic is used for IOAM)
- [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Jai Kumar
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Vijay Rangarajan
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Frank Brockners (fbrockne)
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Vijay Rangarajan
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 OU, Heidi
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Tom Herbert
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 OU, Heidi
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Tom Herbert
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Barak Gafni
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Anoop Ghanwani
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Tom Herbert
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Greg Mirsky
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Jai Kumar
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Greg Mirsky
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Tom Herbert
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Tianran Zhou
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Tianran Zhou
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Anoop Ghanwani
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Jai Kumar
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Frank Brockners (fbrockne)
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Anoop Ghanwani