Re: [ippm] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-ippm-route-09: (with COMMENT) - extract: same flow

"Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com> Mon, 10 August 2020 12:12 UTC

Return-Path: <cpignata@cisco.com>
X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 314DD3A1524; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 05:12:55 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -9.598
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=LsYvIYjd; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=H8qP7A6O
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eVDqE69FRjvb; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 05:12:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 672183A1521; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 05:12:53 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2492; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1597061573; x=1598271173; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=Hr6Gwz16vZ/Fiw/15AdUfSLDuWxitfdELzRI/w0X4sE=; b=LsYvIYjdvyNpDM7EwmXUEjssultu+GXZacH+420WGvVZ61y1mr2ryzjp motUHJ1d5O+AS96lV+WCTjOHIoMGd/xIJS+XvRRRmcXcJy260wVdyZNzO hU7bVYYjKnypIHrLTfR2z4gT6lRRIXTXVZMbNe1cpZIY3ZWaMZjjKKqTN w=;
X-IPAS-Result: A0CwAABHODFf/4ENJK1gHQEBAQEJARIBBQUBQIE3BwELAYFRUQeBRy8sCoQsg0YDjVGYZoEugSUDVQsBAQEMAQEtAgQBAYRMAheCHwIkNQgOAgMBAQEDAgMBAQEBBQEBAQIBBgRthVwBC4VyAQEDARIREQwBATcBBAsCAQYCGgImAgICMBUQAQEEDgUigwSCTAMOIAGWVZBoAoE5iGF2gTKDAQEBBYVAGIIOCYEOKgGCb4NfhkAagUE/gREnHIJNPoQUASg4AoJdM4ItkkM8kjyQbwqCYpoZAx6gEoVSjFyfNAIEAgQFAg4BAQWBVQM1gVdwFWUBgj5QFwINjh83gzqKVnQ3AgYBBwEBAwl8jVoBJ4ENAYEQAQE
IronPort-PHdr: 9a23:g9fTvBM3KQt56tIxZvcl6mtXPHoupqn0MwgJ65Eul7NJdOG58o//OFDEvK893kXERojS8flEzePKr+brXmlTqZqCsXVXdptKWldFjMgNhAUvDYaDDlGzN//laSE2XaEgHF9o9n22Kw5ZTcD5YVCBuHCp4DcIERW5PBZpYO/yH92ag8G+zevn/ZrVbk1Bjya8ZrUnKhKwoE3Ru8AajJEkJLw2z07Co2BDfKJdwmY7KA==
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.75,457,1589241600"; d="scan'208";a="517138482"
Received: from alln-core-9.cisco.com ([173.36.13.129]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 10 Aug 2020 12:12:52 +0000
Received: from XCH-ALN-004.cisco.com (xch-aln-004.cisco.com [173.36.7.14]) by alln-core-9.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 07ACCquk029991 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 10 Aug 2020 12:12:52 GMT
Received: from xhs-rtp-001.cisco.com (64.101.210.228) by XCH-ALN-004.cisco.com (173.36.7.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 07:12:52 -0500
Received: from xhs-rtp-003.cisco.com (64.101.210.230) by xhs-rtp-001.cisco.com (64.101.210.228) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 08:12:50 -0400
Received: from NAM12-MW2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (64.101.32.56) by xhs-rtp-003.cisco.com (64.101.210.230) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 08:12:50 -0400
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=HQQX8N3SBFn+A3MH+5cwiH0ujYCweN45pJGC7Du8+o7AbnlkG4DDflLGZqbx/zZKywYlRk1SpqfKaANVYoqGdsXVUu9J5JKi7gbJ46Mlkdlad2XHJcHwbxBaidACreqWWm9Iwd0DzuOM3xRVbZVq7pI5kPUBa40VQwXY29wNm/vmslgPiJTX9MwgTDV2S364pNA/hrnygdYn+mNOCqV6HjzZXJLoqR7crFWyQe/BMuyMgpVtX3fkuqEN8pXObpw3pqx2mXaXCoMp7OriQQnskvLrLUWh72WW3fFesE4lfrXfYsZqq6oEeeBTZzS55wrX9umA7sSeqEZs5vUNaZiGVQ==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=Hr6Gwz16vZ/Fiw/15AdUfSLDuWxitfdELzRI/w0X4sE=; b=TCdLaKZSXMN6tT/lXsq2LTj5eYyRrjBDtYLe48uMUygXgn3/YTfjgM2G7huX8LK8imSLGIWqgtBgVQzDCUn2aMM0bGnpp96myv9cFE0Y36dOnzp374p2RJUKwGOGAby/OAicNRoEBm/7cLnBpHs9QaOvSXMgvdezqmCJ2ylRxigXCndKr43u8OSGtmZlln3y3D/fmNC2PI20tUTyppBGob4ne6AEMyvD0qzIgcTFb90aCUZGOo4JVsPtyN/Rliqo9qk840kI4rLrr1WrZNg90nbh/VKsB08srh+F1LoRFrfKjkpBFg5l0+rrbHAxyZ7xTk7psT+irW3CUGygF2DZog==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cisco.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cisco.com; dkim=pass header.d=cisco.com; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-cisco-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=Hr6Gwz16vZ/Fiw/15AdUfSLDuWxitfdELzRI/w0X4sE=; b=H8qP7A6OXgQ0rY5HwljzeoAAO0yimEAaflzuGUQ3NEY+wNgAJNpSQgwv6YdkzI9V+JedTwkwirP/qSW76T20MecA4k4JvWsw4Pv+nYHbbRZ9lUrtatEHC1Iw//HjjcT5aOZKv4XAAL88j64zoddHpgjqOcoT99Ud+94trjT6vfA=
Received: from BN8PR11MB3635.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:408:86::20) by BN6PR11MB1587.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:405:10::16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3261.16; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 12:12:49 +0000
Received: from BN8PR11MB3635.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::dcf:cc9f:b398:6591]) by BN8PR11MB3635.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::dcf:cc9f:b398:6591%4]) with mapi id 15.20.3261.024; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 12:12:49 +0000
From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: "Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
CC: "acm@research.att.com" <acm@research.att.com>, "kaduk@mit.edu" <kaduk@mit.edu>, "draft-ietf-ippm-route@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ippm-route@ietf.org>, "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, "ippm@ietf.org" <ippm@ietf.org>, "ietf@trammell.ch" <ietf@trammell.ch>, "iesg@ietf.org" <iesg@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-ippm-route-09: (with COMMENT) - extract: same flow
Thread-Index: AdZu3wiSLwbeDihgToSB2TT/H3C6xAAMIfFm
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 12:12:49 +0000
Message-ID: <C896ED8E-9A84-480D-8E1C-F43025A7B963@cisco.com>
References: <FRAPR01MB05466F4C5F54885227134DF49C440@FRAPR01MB0546.DEUPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.DE>
In-Reply-To: <FRAPR01MB05466F4C5F54885227134DF49C440@FRAPR01MB0546.DEUPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.DE>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: ja-JP
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
authentication-results: research.att.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none; research.att.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com;
x-originating-ip: [136.56.129.159]
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 409a76f4-a0b6-4245-34ed-08d83d26b331
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BN6PR11MB1587:
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <BN6PR11MB15872D4A1787063DEB13E2C4C7440@BN6PR11MB1587.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000;
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: ivVcvenUs1lFlEaOGvLM8XJWTcRnXuNwJcTSCojRuSprG9tCvRmIwF4zJGS58DEAkFM6Pk2qV+uxwMC1mMA18LF+VoOFeGOW0AhwSpSFdhQ3V8BYUwxAN5XAO6REAZ4PL1L+KqvP2ULKm/3Vhj5+OmYRHGH/v1l9vb6Hv2HF9/S6F0sbVq63F6YR807dNccb+2wtTQ5xDt1oUvR3ga/YLHolSK6D00t4VH2ta3888A4/IQV/DCvb6fhiiULTlyhQPsUehgV8300OXEunJ80d+y1phaSALIlAtd0tv3oWFgvjtBmIWs+/9HT4Tc4LzWWs0QgDAWVujm2oCUKZh6C1dA==
x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:BN8PR11MB3635.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFTY:; SFS:(4636009)(366004)(396003)(376002)(136003)(39860400002)(346002)(36756003)(6486002)(2906002)(4326008)(33656002)(86362001)(4743002)(478600001)(6916009)(8676002)(8936002)(6512007)(2616005)(5660300002)(66556008)(71200400001)(64756008)(66946007)(66476007)(91956017)(66446008)(76116006)(54906003)(26005)(186003)(316002)(66574015)(83380400001)(6506007); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101;
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 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
x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BN8PR11MB3635.namprd11.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 409a76f4-a0b6-4245-34ed-08d83d26b331
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Aug 2020 12:12:49.5334 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: MRE7tMkdyRjj+9j0/bdK7c9WMjgdfPMjZKrI/oDp7Kd5STr8Y+gaVpZzI8gZsE/5lRZYEFkaAr+O0EPn2tgukQ==
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN6PR11MB1587
X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com
X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.14, xch-aln-004.cisco.com
X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-9.cisco.com
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/7C38GKl9FvrK9m1D_GMG5sHr5wg>
Subject: Re: [ippm] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-ippm-route-09: (with COMMENT) - extract: same flow
X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group <ippm.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ippm>, <mailto:ippm-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ippm/>
List-Post: <mailto:ippm@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ippm-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm>, <mailto:ippm-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 12:12:55 -0000

Thanks Ruediger. 

I feel a SHOULD is more appropriate than a MUST here given both application specifics as well as path selection algorithms — we do not want to limit based on the incorrect assumption that we know them all. 

Thanks!

Thumb typed by Carlos Pignataro.
Excuze typofraphicak errows

> 2020/08/10 午前3:22、"Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>のメール:
> 
> Al, Ben,
> 
> thanks for extensive reading and discussion and for proposed resolutions. Al asked for what others say in one point:
> 
>> 
>>   o  TCP case: For IPv4, the fields Src, Dst, port-Src, port_Dst,
>>      sequence number, and Diffserv Field SHOULD be the same.  For IPv6,
>>      the field FlowLabel, Src and Dst SHOULD be the same.
>> 
>> Are we happy to pair "to maintain the same flow" (previous paragraph)
>> with "SHOULD be the same" (here, and subsequent bullet points)?
> [acm] 
> There are ways to conduct valid measurements with SHOULD, IMO, but I see how MUST results in simplification.  Let's see what others say about this; no change proposed yet.
> 
> [RG] The set of packet information to base a load-sharing decision might be defined differently by a chain of nodes on an end-to-end path. Different operators may have different preferences and a Layer 4 device my base its decisions on other parameters than a core-router. The other way around: would a MUST kind of imply that we were able to offer a reference which of the mentioned fields specify a flow (we can not and we should not, I think)? Leaving it as a recommendation, and yes, a serious one, is better, I think. Thought the other way around: I some cases, there may be limited flexibility in flow definitions at some nodes along a path, and it may be useful.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Ruediger
> 
> 
> 
>