Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-capacity-metric-method-08.txt

Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> Tue, 30 March 2021 08:54 UTC

Return-Path: <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80D023A2BF6 for <ippm@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 01:54:13 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.101
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rfzwpldb3RAk for <ippm@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 01:54:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR04-DB3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr60057.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.6.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 70BF23A2BF3 for <ippm@ietf.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 01:54:08 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=oHOZiHscKzkptcq7zKv4P/zIxJm//liE7VlmIwFx6U57c6q+L/iFQBHc0aum3/082rOKzBfEINFP6c6ubVJ15AT2nwIEw5yl6sTOK+n133R1JSfd6wPbw8DiZZu2O0uBmdqVtd+hYSoE3vn3yH4rwns31hhlFBXFUZGDiAt0BgUbj8oFiLhXIOp1s7hxlAQyOxTop6DWa6b4xr++hLeK29sF4lcSpen8JqcoeyyyVVClB5pGvATKttm7kETDZlLYvAFZy/ACHhXWMOtgKeEh1bGmIyzFA8q9bSK9vJsGi4lO1N7PrUHg50sqeAjDWzJQifW6Lb1cAFDDcmtd4dtmmg==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=LKxaI1zx3OOsdK177Zyb14VzpbHmF6H36M+UUHXEVgs=; b=KJrAa0Xj24pTDwrMG+dJ96Lo3mZnrLlWEnspRs80s1z5zFuFw90Qigy+ACgv+2/EFFegsOMvdhPFDk7fCnfK21fUUqwPb6G1P/E/DdqY6Ae8a9i/oFVEh5w7mcfI5Z4XT4ONX1f7cb3qKRc3XdB+EDfLjFUWL5UfYmqyUnVO7oaIdNdF7c8mFIooiEVGCE3U74hfzimXqelXf8IZRVIgEQ6KWsyMSgqFDmezmBlvQ4+n4xUOinhmmzc+Yt0a5OoIVFj2qL6eiYHhFLbCfDG3We0/CxuDCwI82uBAFW1bYt4DZnD563Uc8ldNLygHdbDgAky2MI/LjPGtcPTExuuqMw==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=ericsson.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=ericsson.com; dkim=pass header.d=ericsson.com; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ericsson.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=LKxaI1zx3OOsdK177Zyb14VzpbHmF6H36M+UUHXEVgs=; b=rgcpvw6PmyQLSVcny+s3Ird+FFmUpxgPCULegc8NIdn79uIZWe/9NE35GHR1E+/DKNP8oWqkIybc/wG5thXV7y6KxXZwuM8iB8cFOmdTprGYryhaMIJCK8NL1MUonOHeamBPIvMmz3S03RFSUJrjen6venC/OiF4sxrjldezpnQ=
Received: from HE1PR0702MB3772.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:7:8e::14) by HE1PR0701MB2459.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:3:72::15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3999.19; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 08:54:04 +0000
Received: from HE1PR0702MB3772.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d1fa:a432:3534:56da]) by HE1PR0702MB3772.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d1fa:a432:3534:56da%6]) with mapi id 15.20.3999.016; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 08:54:04 +0000
From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
To: "ippm@ietf.org" <ippm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-capacity-metric-method-08.txt
Thread-Index: AQHXJOLrl9yneiGOTUyGqQdxAyNF5aqcKKEQ
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 08:54:04 +0000
Message-ID: <HE1PR0702MB3772E8BA15BFF01315E139A8957D9@HE1PR0702MB3772.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
References: <161705348048.17388.9380614999436689902@ietfa.amsl.com>
In-Reply-To: <161705348048.17388.9380614999436689902@ietfa.amsl.com>
Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach: yes
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=ericsson.com;
x-originating-ip: [158.174.130.243]
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 9ee10c21-a1c8-40ab-c3af-08d8f3595f06
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: HE1PR0701MB2459:
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <HE1PR0701MB2459AEA42BBB3E499C5AAB8D957D9@HE1PR0701MB2459.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000;
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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
x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:HE1PR0702MB3772.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(376002)(396003)(136003)(366004)(39860400002)(346002)(66574015)(5660300002)(26005)(186003)(316002)(9686003)(55016002)(7696005)(71200400001)(33656002)(53546011)(6506007)(44832011)(478600001)(2906002)(66946007)(66476007)(66556008)(64756008)(66446008)(66616009)(76116006)(38100700001)(99936003)(86362001)(83380400001)(52536014)(966005)(8676002)(8936002)(6916009); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101;
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: =?us-ascii?Q?Y8dYEsgmK8ZYy+wNc+CiQHL/G67NCHWMqYCF8SrpLAbgFzKR051mp4HBWPws?= =?us-ascii?Q?mDo5alWP5jpd/9F9AFKgfhsOe6dolxuWs05zRn7APCBZ1XifHyn3VjaijFO7?= =?us-ascii?Q?SrdR9A2Y6AoK2iSEXIqiQwYta0g8Pk7TITCsCCynha0Yz9XQ8dmYNDQ56fEm?= =?us-ascii?Q?5V/jclTg+1o4IZlKjNHGdQxOClUfLQVtqHxtc+fKvj+/ru7l+fiEGRiL5pep?= =?us-ascii?Q?oIDbGwGccTEnpKNnJwxkeNjPIJywFJKdChfQeun95tS0JIQM1tcLW/jsyik5?= =?us-ascii?Q?MoNWeToIpmcsuexNbZgFCH7q74KJPW8jFpvfcmagyzNAcCgSo9nw863IJuHB?= =?us-ascii?Q?BWHwX0MI1Nh7DkGowvRYyxe3R2iKWdq1OzYN49/khT3Kj+qXEJbH2trhGSK8?= =?us-ascii?Q?ouhHFFv90pSPC4spnD2cEEv3BaI09hKpYg0tvBFQehkHRZX055qdNSax/heY?= =?us-ascii?Q?O6RGX5cUvbGkc+r51icwO/SF0qsVxgCvypbf6XYxpZ8wCHTr6hNkL9G6ZAGi?= =?us-ascii?Q?LxAOjt5SE67d+YTx3EgxlrRuTyzCwaTI4joNAXRSu96qu+8VwBvkrzYotbFa?= =?us-ascii?Q?QzVbQMJphqVKXqVGP6vPld/F0rO6lGbQdzNzu/bZeMb0ixDFCWskucfgmUJ1?= =?us-ascii?Q?+rwHb7bRzsz+CmplW3VgX3rkZLP39HP1j7ijuXcEb2B/SSrYqYsudSjf1r6J?= =?us-ascii?Q?qhOiAi+pQqQPMVc7ZBB1DqkIZOxp5rLFAmqH8ON48r/mrfL6k6FnFV11YR7x?= =?us-ascii?Q?3iz8b97gQSprSFevDr8S9CugAxAJoMEWWxxcSyS0knLQTU5EWnKnOUqcXCPq?= =?us-ascii?Q?z2Y6RgsDmQZOAVp91d7luIi+bN0+O54a2AamZ/gPyoCx0/lNbCnRJaN1hH2P?= =?us-ascii?Q?OVBsomtv0WYd9VrWaNi7UJqhgUaBMfneiQLdlP8Y/R9YEZjSJSbEessT+Rqr?= =?us-ascii?Q?9ys89yESjCci1rRpJXlUnzahCcCz7fflIRBBQ/3Hddl3gS/0ydP5ua0N9zuN?= =?us-ascii?Q?hSI7ZWQpg/QGj0s4CUmHHRgkh60gNaXxQF8JzkUZOGakzAgfTajgubCj/Brc?= =?us-ascii?Q?zqG4MXfSMUA1kTk6CYLeD/sFwvHdCFQa4yE8YsGuEgdsf1OTJ+UXgBPC8h3t?= =?us-ascii?Q?WwHJIYySS6TlHzzwAh2UyAb/ERzYAOb/1oAOyiNVKIysNgzZTnkPwq41D959?= =?us-ascii?Q?KetrpveE9kYQVR3eoQMf6zmYrcapkTVJb4jDa7lCLP6nYxaYzQt1FIC3VLfW?= =?us-ascii?Q?l2wGcf/vzWHANllY8lguELZfpHI5oR+FbVkLE0+d2M1b08pJgRE0Hy9msIi/?= =?us-ascii?Q?WAXzrwlzsk+GT2o9IDL1BRyr?=
x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True
Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_01D72552.F4DD78A0"
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: HE1PR0702MB3772.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9ee10c21-a1c8-40ab-c3af-08d8f3595f06
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Mar 2021 08:54:04.3415 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: /gECTtQz6W9+B/AjI9K+hxZ7ZPQ4Jiab2VHt42zXCznzBefbKf+UnznGfVaZdTY2eNIBfO9FSWyax7YIYok+HMWXkHWCsANOZ14qXQomsaU=
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR0701MB2459
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/B64y0PC0LSl9Gt9w7_FcW_aP-xE>
Subject: Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-capacity-metric-method-08.txt
X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group <ippm.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ippm>, <mailto:ippm-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ippm/>
List-Post: <mailto:ippm@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ippm-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm>, <mailto:ippm-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 08:54:13 -0000

Hi,

I have reviewed the latest versions changes and have some comments.

Section 8.1

   If no status feedback messages arrive at the sender for the interval	
   greater than the Lost Status Backoff timeout = w*FT, beginning when	
   the last message (of any type) was successfully received at the  sender:

"w" is used here and paragraphs below. But it is not really defined. Based
on what is written below it is an algorithm constant, so maybe it should be
given a name. 

So the backoff happens after w*FT. And I agree that with a regular feedback
interval that will be working independent of RTT, starting the time when the
first feedback has been received. What I thin this paragraph could be
clearer on is that w*FT need to be considered in relation to the one-way
delay jitter. And the most likely cause here is buffer depth in the
bottleneck. It must also be related to upper delay threshold. What occurs if
upper delay threshold is higher than w*FT? Is there a potential that a step
increases is sufficient to push the buffer occupancy more than w*FT longer,
i.e. causing the feedback to be delayed sufficient so that it triggers the
lost feedback rather than the upper threshold? I haven't calculated what
traffic increases that are possible and if that excess traffic can cause
this to happen without additional cross traffic over bottleneck. I would
assume this is fine to happen in the initial fast ramp-up, but it should not
really happen in the regular ramp-up case.

   The RECOMMENDED initial value for w is 3, taking Round Trip Time	
   (RTT) less than FT into account.  A test with RTT longer than FT is a

   valid reason to increase the initial value of w appropriately.	
   Variable w SHALL be incremented by 1 whenever the Lost Status Backoff

   timeout is exceeded.  So with FT = 50ms, a status feedback message	
   loss would be declared at 150ms following a successful message, again

   at 50ms after that (200ms total), and so on.


I still think that Section 8 could be more explicit about the goal of the
load algorithm. 

To accurately measure the capacity of the path the load algorithm strive to
load the path so that the one way latency increases to indicate that the
bottleneck buffer is sufficiently filled to achieve high utility. This load
is not intended to be fair against other applications, it is intended to
provide as accurate measurement as possible, potentially pushing other
applications out of the way.

The goal of being explicit about this is so that there is no doubt to anyone
what this algorithm does, and that it is not a generic congestion control
algorithm.  So Section 14.1 discuss this, but I think the document can be
more honest here and state it explicitly in Section 8.

Now, I am no longer an AD, but I don't have a problem with a limited scope
algorithm that just is open with its intention of being unfair. I think
having an algorithm that people may copy without understanding what it does
is more a problem. 

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund


> -----Original Message-----
> From: I-D-Announce <i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of
> internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: den 29 mars 2021 23:31
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: ippm@ietf.org
> Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-capacity-metric-method-08.txt
> 
> 
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.
> This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the
> IETF.
> 
>         Title           : Metrics and Methods for One-way IP Capacity
>         Authors         : Al Morton
>                           Ruediger Geib
>                           Len Ciavattone
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-ippm-capacity-metric-method-08.txt
> 	Pages           : 37
> 	Date            : 2021-03-29
> 
> Abstract:
>    This memo revisits the problem of Network Capacity metrics first
>    examined in RFC 5136.  The memo specifies a more practical Maximum
>    IP-layer Capacity metric definition catering for measurement
>    purposes, and outlines the corresponding methods of measurement.
> 
> 
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-capacity-metric-method/
> 
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-capacity-metric-method-08
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-capacity-metric-
> method-08
> 
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-capacity-metric-method-
> 08
> 
> 
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> I-D-Announce mailing list
> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt