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micalg=SHA1; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01D72621.2EC97590" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: FRYP281MB0112.DEUP281.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 92d8c865-6edd-4fe8-1e24-08d8f4279849 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 31 Mar 2021 09:30:16.7192 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bde4dffc-4b60-4cf6-8b04-a5eeb25f5c4f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: WYSnbKPqrrOsjucdMQZDZEx3ontPkzSmmpYk1DC5B6pBWSriFqYxjP2+UZTii4QvjPC8uMTIuPSJMfZTEZ3yZyGw+6K5mO3AlWt+YkB1PPU= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: FRYP281MB0206 X-TM-SNTS-SMTP: 594678EF06308B3E922562EE028A7EC92FB641160EFEA15C359E37AE43B5C8C22000:8 X-OriginatorOrg: telekom.de Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-capacity-metric-method-08.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 09:31:14 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01D72621.2EC97590 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Magnus, Thanks for clarifying.=20 The scheduling behaviour of wireless shared media is an issue and first = results I saw indicated an increased RTT and a rather high access = capacity. Store until there's sufficient load to use a "bearer" and then = send at line rate. I think that's one of the reasons why a measurement = "preamble" is part of the method. As far as I can tell, the above = behaviour turned (often at least) into a more stable forwarding, as long = as measurement traffic arrived regularly afterwards. We can't get around inducing congestion to recon that we are "over the = top". I'd be happy to work with ECN marks too, but ECN isn't widespread = at devices scheduling customer and server traffic with operator = connectivity. The overshooting carefully is a requirement, and that's a = reason why the algorithm measures queue-build up by increasing delay and = classifies it as a congestion indication (as I think do some or all of = the latest transport protocols too, without comparing the detailed = algos). Fairness against competing transport hasn't been tested. In my = eyes, such a test needs to compare commodity speed test vs. competing = transport and then IP-capacity metric traffic vs. competing transport. = Both, commodity speed-test and IP-capacity metric traffic decrease the = bandwidth of competing transport. One of both might have a significantly = stronger impact. I don't judge here, as I'm not aware of tests, but I = also don't think it's ok to state commodity speed tests are fair, as = they are TCP based. Their design goal is to reliably congest the = receiver access until drops occur. Udpst is open source. In general, and not addressing you personally, I'd = appreciate all improvements to reduce total test load and test duration, = and dealing with background traffic or (more generic) dealing with = feedback indicating varying IP-capacity during a single test session at = the receiver. If the result is "available capacity" because of such a = time-varying receiver IP capacity, then that's the result and the test = stops. I agree, that a test should not try to determine IP access = capacity "by all means" (and I think neither does the text provided, nor = does the implementation).=20 Regards, R=C3=BCdiger =20 -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht----- Von: Magnus Westerlund =20 Gesendet: Mittwoch, 31. M=C3=A4rz 2021 09:43 An: Geib, R=C3=BCdiger Cc: ippm@ietf.org Betreff: Re: AW: I-D Action: = draft-ietf-ippm-capacity-metric-method-08.txt Hi Ruediger, On Tue, 2021-03-30 at 10:48 +0000, Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de wrote: > Hi Magnus, >=20 > [MW] To accurately measure the capacity of the path the load algorithm = strive > to load the path so that the one way latency increases to indicate = that the > bottleneck buffer is sufficiently filled to achieve high utility. This = load is > not intended to be fair against other applications, it is intended to = provide > as accurate measurement as possible, potentially pushing other = applications > out of the way. >=20 > [RG] The sender rate adaption mechanism operates by congestion = feedback, as do > many standard transport protocols. The purpose of the algorithm is not = to > determine, whether a queue or a policer burst size "is sufficiently = filled to > achieve high utility", the purpose is to accurately determine the = access speed > which can be reached without queue-build up and/or packet loss. After = feedback > indicating a sender rate which has caused congestion has been = received, the > sender rate is adapted until the maximum access speed not causing = congestion > is determined. To decide on a sender rate fulfilling this this = criterium, a > sender rate causing a congestion which can be accurately identified as > congestion by a measurement system is required. If you are aware of a = method > reaching this goal without causing limited congestion, please share. Okay, I might be slightly conflating two things. So the indication that = the path bottleneck is filled to capacity is the fact that there are some queue = buildup. Loss and queue build up are the two signals that the algorithm has = defined to indicate load and congestion, as it isn't defining a ECN response. = However, I would argue on a number of link technologhies you will not find maximum = capacity unless you attempt to transmit enough data and actually build up some = queue in the relevant buffer. That is definitely true for a number of radio = technologies. The underlying reason can be both efficiency in inter user scheduling as = well as deal with short term radio fading effects. So capacity and high utility = are necessarly linked to me. >=20 > [RG] I don't understand whether your feedback is focused on = improvements of > parametrization or on the basic behaviour of the algorithm. The = algorithm is > not designed to be unfair. I am not after improvements of the algorithms I after accruate = representation of the algorithm and intended usage. From my perspective this algorithm = does not need to be either self-fair or fair against any other congestion control algorithms. And I am fine with that as long as it is clear on the box = what it does. Have anyone run any tests of how this beahves when competing with = other congestion controls, like CUBIC, BBR(1/2), LEDBAT etc? I am not asking = for it but it if it has been run it would be enlightening. 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