Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-olden-ippm-qoo-02
Mehmet Sukru Kuran <sukru.kuran@airties.com> Mon, 22 January 2024 07:50 UTC
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From: Mehmet Sukru Kuran <sukru.kuran@airties.com>
To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" <ippm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-olden-ippm-qoo-02
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Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2024 07:50:00 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/lpeCoHzyzu5-L30ZMrrjNG1IukI>
Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-olden-ippm-qoo-02
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Hi all, I thank all the contributors who have worked on "Quality of Outcome". Below are my comments, 1. First of all, I really liked the idea and I think QoO is a very neat metric for evaluation QoE without going into the pains of conducting a lot of manual testing and try to rely on MOS values. Getting the required NRP and NRPoU values for different applications considering different codecs, buffering mechanisms, etc... might be tricky for mass deployment scenarios but all in all I believe this is a very nice addition for measuring QoE of QoS sensitive traffic. 2. Assume for an application, the NRP P99 is 100 ms, and NRPoU P99 is 200 ms; when a particular "application experience" has a P99 is 110 ms, how come can you say there will be 10% of lagging? I mean, how can you show that lagging is a linear function? * I'm aware that showing this is a linear function (or any other type of function) is not easy at all. If there is a proof showing that such a linear function holds I believe it will increase the value of the IETF document to either explain it or refer to the proof in another document (etc. a paper). * In case there is no such proof at the moment, for the documentation it might be better to say that "There can be different functions and one classical implementation can be using a linear function." * In case there is no such proof at the moment, conducting a lot of tests with empirical data and back the claim with these empirical data or trying to prove that function F is the correct one can be very interesting and quite valuable. 3. Is there a systematic way of converting packet loss, max. delay, max. jitter into P90, P99, P99,9 NRP and NRPoU values? Also, how to combine throughput requirements into this QoO? * You have an example in the document but the details are not clearly laid out. I believe such a conversion method, formulation would be pretty useful. * In the long run, if application vendors define P90, P99, P99,9 NRP and NRPoU values; this will stop being a problem. However, for a wide-spread use of QoO I believe such a "conversion formulations" will be very, very valuable. 4. Regarding the measurements to be used for building the CDF, I see that the only limitation is "having at least 10 samples". * I think just this requirement is just is too loose. On Page 4-5 you explained this not being ideal and in any report on QoO 3 variables must be available. However, even then I believe this requirement can be tightened after some test runs and trials. * There can be several suggested measurement patterns (e.g., a) 1/sec; the measurement should be E2E including encoding/decoding; b) 1/10 sec; the measurement should be from the home router to the server, etc...) 5. On page 7, there is a formulation as QoO = min(ML, NRP, NRPoU) = (1-(ML-NRP)/(NRPoU-NRP))*100 - The document says mathematically these two formulations are equal. However, I see that in many occurrences the two formulations give different results. - Am I missing something here? or making an error? 6. On page 7, there is a formulation as QoO = (1-(ML-NRP)/(NRPoU-NRP))*100 - This formulation "I thought" should give values between 100 (perfect) and 0 (unacceptable). However, if ML < NRP the result is more than 100. - In case I'm not making a mistake and the intention is the QoO to have a value of [0,100], the formulation can be changed into MIN( 100, (1-(ML-NRP)/(NRPoU-NRP))*100 ) Regards, ________________________________ From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Tommy Pauly <tpauly=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> Sent: 16 January 2024 20:13 To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org> Subject: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-olden-ippm-qoo-02 Hello IPPM, This email starts a working group adoption call for "Quality of Outcome” (draft-olden-ippm-qoo). https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-olden-ippm-qoo/ https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-olden-ippm-qoo-02.html The call will last for 3 weeks, and end on Tuesday, February 6. Please reply to this email with your review comments and indicate if you support adopting this work. Please note that we did a previous adoption call that did not receive sufficient feedback. At the last meeting at IETF 118, we did have a good amount of comments and questions, so please do reply to this email if you have reviewed the document. Thanks, Tommy & Marcus Information in this email including any attachments may be privileged, confidential and is intended exclusively for the addressee. The views expressed may not be official policy, but the personal views of the originator. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete it from your system. You should not reproduce, distribute, store, retransmit, use or disclose its contents to anyone.
- [ippm] Adoption call for draft-olden-ippm-qoo-02 Tommy Pauly
- Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-olden-ippm-qoo… Kevin Smith, Vodafone
- Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-olden-ippm-qoo… Mehmet Sukru Kuran
- Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-olden-ippm-qoo… Bjørn Ivar Teigen
- Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-olden-ippm-qoo… Bjørn Ivar Teigen
- Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-olden-ippm-qoo… Dave Taht
- Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-olden-ippm-qoo… Michael Welzl
- Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-olden-ippm-qoo… Bjørn Ivar Teigen
- Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-olden-ippm-qoo… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-olden-ippm-qoo… Bjørn Ivar Teigen
- Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-olden-ippm-qoo… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-olden-ippm-qoo… Bjørn Ivar Teigen
- Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-olden-ippm-qoo… Bjørn Ivar Teigen
- Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-olden-ippm-qoo… Tommy Pauly
- Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-olden-ippm-qoo… Bjørn Ivar Teigen
- Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-olden-ippm-qoo… LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO
- Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-olden-ippm-qoo… Bjørn Ivar Teigen
- Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-olden-ippm-qoo… Bjørn Ivar Teigen
- Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-olden-ippm-qoo… Will Hawkins
- Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-olden-ippm-qoo… Bjørn Ivar Teigen