Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06
Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu> Thu, 22 August 2019 22:22 UTC
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References: <B5A76AB5-AE39-4771-9472-38454CF52152@broadcom.com> <CAGn858RE4p8gez+b0=9PSsZQ=Y1uZANno5V7tqSo=cuqY7AJLA@mail.gmail.com> <BD32CF3D-C6F3-4CF6-A618-C41ED0C4D1CB@cisco.com> <CAGn858SLr4vix18=09gXgsN-VOspBL=qZ2-q6dWyF5b3ASgCYA@mail.gmail.com> <BYAPR11MB25845CFB28F096937486F8D7DAA50@BYAPR11MB2584.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <CAGn858QOPgXb=-WgWhXETKgEw5v1soo=JsDB+LemOr7G6DKB1A@mail.gmail.com> <9FFC50F3-C5E6-4036-8A4D-29DCE2528B91@alibaba-inc.com> <CAPDqMepJsFPy3Gfh7MC2cJwoywK+YVxfyMw0wZtVyw79r8t6_g@mail.gmail.com> <3FDB1B26-B286-4F3A-ABB9-DACE051F0E5D@alibaba-inc.com> <CAPDqMert5S2SMBKCynLTcDQE86MAvgad_C28=DGjpmCbid3G3A@mail.gmail.com> <AM6PR05MB411883BE2DA6A0899DADA499B9A50@AM6PR05MB4118.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com>
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From: Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:22:16 -0700
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To: Barak Gafni <gbarak@mellanox.com>
Cc: Tom Herbert <tom@quantonium.net>, "OU, Heidi" <heidi.ou@alibaba-inc.com>, Hugh Holbrook <holbrook@arista.com>, "draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org>, Surendra Anubolu <surendra.anubolu@broadcom.com>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06
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Hi Barak/Tom, Using IP options would be cleaner but there are other issues that make it undesirable. Most existing silicon will either blindly forward/discard/punt to CPU all packets with IP options. If we pick the forward option, then it opens up a hole that allows packets with any other IP options through. Additionally, when forwarding many will not parse beyond the option header so things like ACLs and hashing for LAG/ECMP will break. Picking any of the other 2 options (discard/punt) means this protocol is no longer backwards compatible. I may be wrong, but I think it may be hard to convince the IETF to move forward with a proposal that needs to extend IPv4 in any way, hence e.g. segment routing is supported only with IPv6. Thanks, Anoop On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 2:28 PM Barak Gafni <gbarak@mellanox.com> wrote: > Hi, > You may be interested to take a look on a draft that discusses the use of > the IP options for IOAM: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gafni-ippm-ioam-ipv4-options-00 > I do agree that IP options is an area we should use for this application. > The good thing about IP options is that the header architecture enable the > implementations to easily go over the options without the need to be aware > and parse them, as a backwards compatibility consideration. > > Thanks, > Barak > > -----Original Message----- > From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Tom Herbert > Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2019 2:11 PM > To: OU, Heidi <heidi.ou@alibaba-inc.com> > Cc: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>; > Hugh Holbrook <holbrook@arista.com>; Anoop Ghanwani < > Anoop.Ghanwani@dell.com>; Surendra Anubolu <surendra.anubolu@broadcom.com> > Subject: Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 > > On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 1:51 PM OU, Heidi <heidi.ou@alibaba-inc.com> > wrote: > > > > Tom, > > > > Thanks for the reply. Anoop also gave some insight offline on the ASIC > restriction. > > > > About adding IOAM as an IP option, I thought it had been proposed in > > > > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftool > > s.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-kumar-ippm-ifa-01%23page-10&data=02%7C01 > > %7Cgbarak%40mellanox.com%7Ce4ccee89b9bc4e1274ce08d727455b2a%7Ca652971c > > 7d2e4d9ba6a4d149256f461b%7C0%7C0%7C637021051167634230&sdata=gt0iYj > > 8NTD2UVgTVshJ011ndwG46tHRcEhXQ5NGvDAE%3D&reserved=0 > > What prevent us from doing that? > > Yeah, IP options would be obstensibly be an obvious choice, but proper > support in middleboxes is notoriously bad. Also, they're limited to forty > bytes. In reality, I doubt no one is seriously considering use of new IPv4 > options. However, IPv6 extension headers are an active area of development > (including the definition of IOAM options). I've written a draft to allow > IPv4 to carry the same HBH extension headers in IPv4 to bridge the gap > between v4 and v6. > > Tom > > > > > From deployment point of view, as long as the INT packet can go through > the exact same path/queue as the pre-encap'd packets, we are fine. > > > > Thanks > > - Heidi > > > > On 2019/8/22, 12:41 PM, "Tom Herbert" <tom@quantonium.net> wrote: > > > > On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 12:21 PM OU, Heidi <heidi.ou@alibaba-inc.com> > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Frank, > > > > > > > > > > > > I also have a question on the encapsulation: If you can get a new > ethertype for IOAM, why not insert IOAM data directly after layer2 MAC? > instead of adding a GRE header for IOAM. > > > > > Because, we need a packet format that is compatible with existing > > network devices. In light of that, GRE is more preferable than using > > the new Ethertype directly in an Ethernet frame. There will also be > > similar arguments made for using GRE/IP, and UDP encapsulation over > > IP, and there was even a proposal to somehow insert the IOAM data > > immediately after the TCP header and before the TCP data. All of > these > > are attempts to use protocol headers that are thought to be most > > palatable to intermediate devices and maximize the chances of > > efficient delivery. > > > > IMO, all of the aforementioned techniques have some problem or aren't > > clean (including the GRE solution). The best solution, and most > > architecturally correct and generic one, is an IOAM option in > > Hop-by-Hop extension headers. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Heidi > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Vijay Rangarajan <vijayr@arista.com> > > > Date: Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 7:22 AM > > > To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com> > > > Cc: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>, Jai Kumar > <jai.kumar@broadcom.com>, "draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org" < > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>, Hugh > Holbrook <holbrook@arista.com>, Anoop Ghanwani <Anoop.Ghanwani@dell.com>, > "OU, Heidi" <heidi.ou@alibaba-inc.com>, Surendra Anubolu < > surendra.anubolu@broadcom.com>, John Lemon <john.lemon@broadcom.com> > > > Subject: Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Frank: > > > > > > Thanks, I knew I was missing something. > > > > > > So basically what you are saying is - let's say we have a UDP > packet, we are just going to stick in the GRE header and IOAM Header and > Metadata in-between the original IP and UDP headers? > > > > > > > > > > > > So, the next protocol in the IOAM Header should indicate the L4 > protocol - i.e UDP/TCP? > > > > > > Looking at > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-weis-ippm-ioam-eth%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cgbarak%40mellanox.com%7Ce4ccee89b9bc4e1274ce08d727455b2a%7Ca652971c7d2e4d9ba6a4d149256f461b%7C0%7C0%7C637021051167634230&sdata=PykE1LWuF5gfIvL3ZiS242rAKnh%2FEZ5PXjZrp6dQXy4%3D&reserved=0, > it actually defines the "Next protocol" in the IOAM header to be an > ethertype value? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Vijay > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 6:22 PM Frank Brockners (fbrockne) < > fbrockne@cisco.com> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Vijay, > > > > > > > > > > > > note that you don’t necessarily need to “tunnel” – you can just > use the GRE header to sequence-in IOAM. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, Frank > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Vijay Rangarajan <vijayr@arista.com> > > > Sent: Donnerstag, 22. August 2019 05:31 > > > To: Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <cpignata@cisco.com> > > > Cc: Jai Kumar <jai.kumar@broadcom.com>; > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>; Frank > Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com>; Hugh Holbrook < > holbrook@arista.com>; Anoop Ghanwani <Anoop.Ghanwani@dell.com>; OU, Heidi > <heidi.ou@alibaba-inc.com>; Surendra Anubolu < > surendra.anubolu@broadcom.com>; John Lemon <john.lemon@broadcom.com> > > > Subject: Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Carlos, for pointing me to the draft. > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on my understanding of the two drafts I have the following > questions and concerns: > > > > > > If I understand correctly, to deploy inband telemetry, we would > need to construct GRE tunnels coinciding with the IOAM domain? > > > GRE typically requires configuration to provision the tunnels. > Provisioning and managing these tunnels and keeping these updated as the > network grows/shrinks could be a significant overhead. > > > In order to get the benefit of telemetry, we are imposing a change > in forwarding protocol/topology and configuration - which, I feel is not > desirable. For example, a customer might have basic L3 routing enabled and > the expectation would be for inband telemetry to work seamlessly, without > having to revamp the network with GRE tunnels and such. This could be a > significant barrier to deployment. > > > If sampling is used to select packets for performing IOAM encap, > is the expectation that only sampled IOAM packets go through GRE encap? Or > all data packets? > > > Due to network nodes inserting the IOAM data, the inner L3/L4 > headers keep getting pushed deeper. I would imagine this gets challenging > for ASICs to access these fields for hashing/load balancing. > > > Assuming only a subset of packets in a flow are subject to IOAM > (based on sampling), how do we ensure these packets take the same network > path as the rest of the packets in the flow? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Vijay > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 5:04 PM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) < > cpignata@cisco.com> wrote: > > > > > > Hello, Vijay, > > > > > > > > > > > > Please see > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-weis-ippm-ioam-eth%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cgbarak%40mellanox.com%7Ce4ccee89b9bc4e1274ce08d727455b2a%7Ca652971c7d2e4d9ba6a4d149256f461b%7C0%7C0%7C637021051167634230&sdata=PykE1LWuF5gfIvL3ZiS242rAKnh%2FEZ5PXjZrp6dQXy4%3D&reserved=0, > and the document this replaces. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > Thumb typed by Carlos Pignataro. > > > > > > Excuze typofraphicak errows > > > > > > > > > 2019/08/21 6:35、Vijay Rangarajan <vijayr@arista.com>のメール: > > > > > > Hello all: > > > > > > Apologise if this has been previously discussed. > > > > > > In reading "draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06", I don't see mention of > GRE encap. The draft, in fact in Sec 3, says the following - "The in-situ > OAM data field can be transported by a variety of transport protocols, > including NSH, Segment Routing, Geneve, IPv6, or IPv4. Specification > details for these different transport protocols are outside the scope of > this document." > > > > > > > > > > > > Is there another document, or a description somewhere, that talks > about how IOAM is proposed to be carried in GRE? what would be the GRE > payload, the GRE protocol type etc? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Vijay > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 7:52 AM Jai Kumar <jai.kumar@broadcom.com> > wrote: > > > > > > Hello Frank, > > > > > > > > > > > > This is in context of our conversation at IETF105. My goal is to > provide input and improve current IOAM data draft with the learnings we had > with IFA deployment. > > > > > > This feedback is based on various customer interactions and > concerns raised by them wrt IOAM. Each feedback is a longer topic and I am > starting this thread as a summary email. This is just highlighting the > issues and not yet proposing any solution. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Feedback 1: > > > > > > Section 4.2..1 Pre-allocated and Incremental Trace Options > > > > > > Pre-allocated and incremental trace option is 8Bytes long. This > can be easily reduced to 4Bytes. > > > > > > There is a feedback that pre-allocated option is really not needed > and either be removed or made optional. > > > > > > Given that deployments are sensitive to the IOAM overhead > (specially in 5G deployments), it’s a 50% fixed overhead savings on a per > packet basis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Feedback 2: > > > > > > Section 4.1 IOAM Namespaces > > > > > > Namespaces should be treated as templates (similar to IPFIX > template record formats). This is more flexible way of enumerating data. > 64K namespace id is a very large namespace and can be reduced to 64 IANA > specified name spaces. Separate private name space can be allowed instead > of interleaving of opaque data in the IANA allocated name space as > suggested in the current draft “opaque state snapshot”. > > > > > > > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Frfc7011%23section-3.4&data=02%7C01%7Cgbarak%40mellanox.com%7Ce4ccee89b9bc4e1274ce08d727455b2a%7Ca652971c7d2e4d9ba6a4d149256f461b%7C0%7C0%7C637021051167634230&sdata=WgPKon9dcPr2bhKG0amAA2rLs9DVKbQTUmjF7FZMYHs%3D&reserved=0 > > > > > > > > > > > > Feedback 3: > > > > > > Section 4.2.1 Pre-allocated and Incremental Trace Options > > > > > > IOAM-Trace-Type: A 24-bit identifier which specifies which data > > > > > > types are used in this node data list. > > > > > > This is the most contentious of all. In the current proposal, as > new data fields are added, there is a corresponding trace type bit need in > the header. This essentially means that all possible data fields need to be > enumerated. Given that we there are 64K names spaces allowed, I don’t see > how we can fit all possible data fields in this 24bit vector. I know there > was a suggestion of keeping last bit as an extension bit but it is still > scalable and/or easy to implement in hardware. Besides this the data fields > are not annotated/encoded with the data type, something like in IPFIX > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Frfc7011%23section-6.1&data=02%7C01%7Cgbarak%40mellanox.com%7Ce4ccee89b9bc4e1274ce08d727455b2a%7Ca652971c7d2e4d9ba6a4d149256f461b%7C0%7C0%7C637021051167644216&sdata=1lWHooNEDwt4Rh8oxXy2VlyyRgoWBZr6Ig%2BYvQQJfYk%3D&reserved=0 > > > > > > > > > > > > Feedback 4: > > > > > > There is no version field in the data header and this will make > interoperability challenging. Standard will evolve and headers bit > definition and/or trace type will change and without version field HW will > not be able to correctly handle the IOAM data headers. > > > > > > > > > > > > Feedback 5: > > > > > > Handling of TCP/UDP traffic using GRE encap is not acceptable. > Here are some of the issues I can think of > > > > > > GRE encaped IOAM packets will traverse a different network path > then the original packet > > > Not all packets can be GRE encaped to avoid the previous problem, > due to wastage of network bandwidth (typically sampled traffic is used for > IOAM). What about native GRE traffic, will it get further encaped in > another GRE tunnel and so forth. > > > IP header protocol will point to GRE IP proto and IOAM ethertype > (pending allocation by IEEE) need to be read from the GRE header to detect > an IOAM packet. This means parsing performance penalty for all regular GRE > (non IOAM) traffic. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > -Jai > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ippm mailing list > > > ippm@ietf.org > > > > > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww. > > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fippm&data=02%7C01%7Cgbarak%40mella > > nox.com%7Ce4ccee89b9bc4e1274ce08d727455b2a%7Ca652971c7d2e4d9ba6a4d1492 > > 56f461b%7C0%7C0%7C637021051167644216&sdata=VrxNh%2FdRh%2FYasyWtFXS > > et2I5iADIY0U5vDjLd6ObAmU%3D&reserved=0 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fippm&data=02%7C01%7Cgbarak%40mellanox.com%7Ce4ccee89b9bc4e1274ce08d727455b2a%7Ca652971c7d2e4d9ba6a4d149256f461b%7C0%7C0%7C637021051167644216&sdata=VrxNh%2FdRh%2FYasyWtFXSet2I5iADIY0U5vDjLd6ObAmU%3D&reserved=0 > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm >
- [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Jai Kumar
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Vijay Rangarajan
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Frank Brockners (fbrockne)
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Vijay Rangarajan
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 OU, Heidi
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Tom Herbert
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 OU, Heidi
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Tom Herbert
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Barak Gafni
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Anoop Ghanwani
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Tom Herbert
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Greg Mirsky
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Jai Kumar
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Greg Mirsky
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Tom Herbert
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Tianran Zhou
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Tianran Zhou
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Anoop Ghanwani
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Jai Kumar
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Frank Brockners (fbrockne)
- Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06 Anoop Ghanwani