Re: IETf permissions distinct from permissions given to the world
Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu> Mon, 07 March 2005 21:36 UTC
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To: Scott W Brim <sbrim@cisco.com>
References: <tslpsybs986.fsf@cz.mit.edu> <20050307165249.GB4032@sbrim-w2k02>
From: Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 16:34:34 -0500
In-Reply-To: <20050307165249.GB4032@sbrim-w2k02> (Scott W. Brim's message of "Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:52:50 -0500")
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Subject: Re: IETf permissions distinct from permissions given to the world
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[Here's a copy of my original message] I see two related issues on the copyright front. First, what rights should the IETF require from authors. Second, what rights should the IETF grant to third parties. The second must be a subset (although perhaps not a proper subset) of the first. I'd like to focus on the first issue for a moment. Currently the IETF does not have the right to grant third parties the non-exclusive right to create derivative works. I think this is a serious problem even if we don't decide to do something like what Simon asks and create open-source compatible copyrights. Currently the procedure is fairly complicated if we find an error in our IPR policies. This is not a theoretical concern: we've found that we don't give enough rights to quote RFCs in manuals and it is unclear that we give rights to extract ASN.1 modules for people outside the IETF process. Regardless of whether we eventually decide these issues are bugs, we have been reminded of our fallibility. It seems interesting to ask ourselves what happens if we do decide to change the policy. let's say that we publish RFC 4067 which expands the rights we require from authors and changes or expands the rights we grant to third parties. What's the status of all the internet-drafts in the system and all the RFCs. Well, some of them are RFC 2026, some are RFC 3667 and some are RFC 4067. If I write new text it is clearly RFC 4067. But one of the rights we have always had is the right to use previous standards in new standards. However we do not have the right to grant permissions in excess of those we actually have ourselves. RFC 3667 is careful to only reserve the minimum permissions we need. So, I decide to update RFC 3932. I take the old text and replace a significant chunk of it. I then prepare to go submit the internet draft and am faced with boiler plate that wants me to assert that I'm giving the IETF all the rights required by RFC 4067. I can't do that. I don't have those rights: I'm not the original author of 3932. In the case of 3932 I could probably contact the original author and get the appropriate permissions but that is not generally true. One option is to decide that unless I get these permissions I cannot make a derivative work of an RFC 3667-copyright standard. That seems highly undesirable. The other option is to keep track of which rights I have. I submit with a boilerplate that indicates I am using both RFC 3667 and 4067 text. It is probably desirable to list what sources of 3667 text I have so that if those sources are later upgraded to 4067, I can upgrade my entire document to pure 4067. In effect I need to keep track of one bit of state (3667/4067) for each source of significant text going into my draft. that's painful. Imagine if we later expand our permissions again. That's right, two bits per source. My head hurts; powersets are a sign you're doing something very wrong. Let's fix the permissions we grant ourselves once and for all. We need to divorce our policies for what we allow others to do from our policies about what rights we require. The policies about what rights we grant others will evolve over time. However I think we can require full non-exclusive permission to make derivative works and to allow others to do the same now. Whether we use that permission will be a matter for BCP and endless debate. But at least we can limit the pain that debate will cause. --Sam _______________________________________________ Ipr-wg mailing list Ipr-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipr-wg _______________________________________________ Ipr-wg mailing list Ipr-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipr-wg
- IETf permissions distinct from permissions given … Sam Hartman
- Re: IETf permissions distinct from permissions gi… Scott Bradner
- Re: IETf permissions distinct from permissions gi… Scott W Brim
- Re: IETf permissions distinct from permissions gi… Sam Hartman
- Re: IETf permissions distinct from permissions gi… Harald Tveit Alvestrand