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boundary="_000_PH3PPFA3FE8A23FA3FD8DE50FFD8EE8E4A8C194APH3PPFA3FE8A23F_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: PH3PPFA3FE8A23F.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: afd40e51-f834-4f77-b695-08de5a8012ba X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Jan 2026 13:05:24.9197 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: UG65Oh4jNv2t/O2VaFUrrYfPA09kAvGk46U49LVtPwaGcEMBCNrerTlS4ot59TTp7kYCJ0LMbzBtLepSLtx8Mw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PH7PR11MB6355 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 72.163.7.162, rcdn-opgw-1.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-l-core-09.cisco.com Message-ID-Hash: XOJTJ2KP7XCMIBIW22XHFMPWCD5KSTXK X-Message-ID-Hash: XOJTJ2KP7XCMIBIW22XHFMPWCD5KSTXK X-MailFrom: sfluhrer@cisco.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-ipsec.ietf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6 Precedence: list Subject: =?utf-8?q?=5BIPsec=5D_Re=3A_Call_for_adoption=3A_draft-wang-ipsecme-hybrid-k?= =?utf-8?q?em-ikev2-frodo-03_=28Ends_2026-02-09=29?= List-Id: Discussion of IPsec protocols Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --_000_PH3PPFA3FE8A23FA3FD8DE50FFD8EE8E4A8C194APH3PPFA3FE8A23F_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The option you suggest below of negotiating "NONE" as the first key exchang= e is (IMHO) Evil, and I would call for it to be rejected. If you want to d= o FrodoKEM only (and you don't have MTU concerns, either because you're goi= ng over TLS, or your L2 protocol has a large MTU size), then make FrodoKEM = as your first (and only) key exchange - problem solved. ________________________________ From: Wang Guilin Sent: Friday, January 23, 2026 5:25 AM To: John Mattsson ; Wang Guilin ; Ben S3 ; Michael Richardson ; Thom Wiggers ; ipsec@ietf.org Subject: [IPsec] Re: Call for adoption: draft-wang-ipsecme-hybrid-kem-ikev2= -frodo-03 (Ends 2026-02-09) I see. But the draft is not restricting how implementations are using Frodo= KEM. Instead, we are considering to expend the draft for running pure FrodoKEM o= ver TLS, as suggested by Scott. This case is not covered in the current ver= sion 03. Also, I am think if we can run pure FrodoKEM (or any PQ KEM) in IKEv2 under= the framework of RFC 9370 as follows. * In IKE_SA_INIT, KE payload includes NONE as the traditional KE. Note = that NONE, no KE at all, has 0 as its KE Method Transform ID, according to = the IANA IKEv2 parameters, https://www.iana.org/assignments/ikev2-parameter= s/ikev2-parameters.xhtml. * Later, run Intermediate exchange to exchange the public key and ciphe= rtext of FrodoKEM via ADDKE, as specified by FRC 9370. * Namely, the means NONE+FrodoKEM=3DFrodoKEM. * Not sure if this works and is good in IKEv2 practice? Guilin From: John Mattsson Sent: Friday, 23 January 2026 6:03 pm To: Wang Guilin ; Ben S3 ; Michael Richardson ; Thom Wiggers ; ipsec@ietf.org Cc: Wang Guilin Subject: Re: [IPsec] Re: Call for adoption: draft-wang-ipsecme-hybrid-kem-i= kev2-frodo-03 (Ends 2026-02-09) >- Still, the main part for our draft is about how to use FrodoKEM in hybri= d way (traditional KE+FrodoKEM), though more PQ KEMs can be added by follow= ing RFC 9370. I disagree with this, I think the main part of IPSECME=92s draft should be = to register code points for FrodoKEM without restricting how implementation= s are using FrodoKEM. John From: Wang Guilin > Date: Friday, 23 January 2026 at 10:12 To: Ben S3 >, Michael Richardson >, Thom Wiggers >, ipsec@ietf.org > Cc: Wang Guilin > Subject: [IPsec] Re: Call for adoption: draft-wang-ipsecme-hybrid-kem-ikev2= -frodo-03 (Ends 2026-02-09) Yes, this true. Also considering what a better name for our draft draft-wan= g-ipsecme-hybrid-kem-ikev2-frodo. And this may also indicate similar issue = for draft-ietf-ipsecme-ikev2-mlkem. For draft-wang-ipsecme-hybrid-kem-ikev2-frodo-03: - Current title: "Post-quantum Hybrid Key Exchange in IKEv2 with FrodoKEM" - Michael Richardson: "Using FrodoKEM in Multiple IKEv2 Key Exchanges" - Thom Wiggers: =93FrodoKEM for IKE_INTERMEDIATE IKEv2 Key Exchanges - Scott Fluhrer: No exact name suggested, but commented: "I would recommend= that this draft should back off from assuming that Frodo can be used only = in the "Classical+Frodo" combination." For me, I like the current one or that from Michael. A few reasons: - Still, the main part for our draft is about how to use FrodoKEM in hybrid= way (traditional KE+FrodoKEM), though more PQ KEMs can be added by followi= ng RFC 9370. - The draft can describe how to run pure FrodoKEM over TLS, as Scott sugges= ted. But this is a smaller case in the draft. - For my understanding, hybrid is more general than just T/PQ. It refers tw= o or more crypto component algorithms are combined to achieve a security pu= rpose. (Also, how to combine the component algorithms and how strong the re= sulting solution are further issues.) - RFC 9794 seems not giving definition for "hybrid", but mentions that it c= an be used for T/PQ (like hybrid KE defined by ETSI) or a more general con= cept (like hybrid KE defined by NIST). Details can be found in Section 1 of= RFC 9794. draft-ietf-ipsecme-ikev2-mlkem: - Current title: "Post-quantum Hybrid Key Exchange with ML-KEM in the Inter= net Key Exchange Protocol Version 2 (IKEv2)" This WG document does specify how to use pure ML-KEM in IKEv2. Abstract tel= ls "This draft specifies how to use ML-KEM by itself or as an additional ke= y exchange in IKEv2 along with a traditional key exchange." Guilin -----Original Message----- From: Ben S3 > Sent: Friday, 23 January 2026 4:12 pm To: Michael Richardson = >; Thom Wiggers >; ipsec@ie= tf.org Subject: [IPsec] Re: Call for adoption: draft-wang-ipsecme-hybrid-kem-ikev2= -frodo-03 (Ends 2026-02-09) OFFICIAL Without stating an opinion either way, I=92ll note that the title of this d= raft is consistent with the title of draft-ietf-ipsecme-ikev2-mlkem, which = also assumes hybrid. Of course, the solution here might be =93change the name of the ML-KEM draf= t too=94. Ben OFFICIAL -----Original Message----- From: Michael Richardson > Sent: 22 January 2026 21:07 To: Thom Wiggers >; ipsec@i= etf.org Subject: [IPsec] Re: Call for adoption: draft-wang-ipsecme-hybrid-kem-ikev2= -frodo-03 (Ends 2026-02-09) Thom Wiggers > wrote: > Title: > I do strongly feel that =93hybrid=94 should be removed from the title= of > the draft, because I think it will lead to confusion on what this dra= ft > achieves in terms of security. Namely, =93hybrid=94 commonly means PQ= /T > hybrids, but this draft can be used perfectly fine with ML-KEM-512 in > the IKE_SA_INIT key exchange. While I do agree that this would still > give us a (PQ/PQ) =93hybrid=94, I don=92t think that this matches > expectations surrounding the word =93hybrid=94. I agree strongly. RFC9370 defines multiple key exchanges, so linking it in that way makes mor= e sense. > I don=92t think =93hybrid=94 adds much either, other than (to experts= ) > hinting that this needs to be done in IKE_INTERMEDIATE exchanges. So = if > that is the intended message, I suggest renaming the draft to somethi= ng > like =93FrodoKEM for IKE_INTERMEDIATE IKEv2 Key Exchanges=94. Or, maybe "Using FrodoKEM in Multiple IKEv2 Key Exchanges" -- Michael Richardson > = . o O ( IPv6 I=F8T consulting ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide _______________________________________________ IPsec mailing list -- ipsec@ietf.org To unsubscribe send an email to ipsec-leave@ietf.org _______________________________________________ IPsec mailing list -- ipsec@ietf.org To unsubscribe send an email to ipsec-leave@ietf.org --_000_PH3PPFA3FE8A23FA3FD8DE50FFD8EE8E4A8C194APH3PPFA3FE8A23F_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The option you suggest below of negotiating "NONE" as the first k= ey exchange is (IMHO) Evil, and I would call for it to be rejected.  I= f you want to do FrodoKEM only (and you don't have MTU concerns, either bec= ause you're going over TLS, or your L2 protocol has a large MTU size), then make FrodoKEM as your first (and only) key exc= hange - problem solved.

From: Wang Guilin <Wang.Guilin=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org= >
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2026 5:25 AM
To: John Mattsson <john.mattsson@ericsson.com>; Wang Guil= in <Wang.Guilin=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Ben S3 <ben.s3=3D4= 0ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org>; Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.= ca>; Thom Wiggers <thom@thomwiggers.nl>; ipsec@ietf.org <ipsec@= ietf.org>
Subject: [IPsec] Re: Call for adoption: draft-wang-ipsecme-hybr= id-kem-ikev2-frodo-03 (Ends 2026-02-09)

I see. But the draft is n= ot restricting how implementations are using FrodoKEM.

&= nbsp;

I= nstead, we are considering to expend the draft for running pure FrodoKE= M over TLS, as suggested by Scott 

Also, I am think if we ca= n run pure FrodoKEM (or any PQ KEM) in IKEv2 under the framework of RFC 937= 0 as follows.

 

Guilin

>- = Still, the main part for our draft is about how to use FrodoKEM in hyb= rid way (traditional KE+FrodoKEM), though more PQ KEMs can be added by following RFC 9370. 

 =

I disa= gree with this, I think the main part of IPSECME=92s draft should be to reg= ister code points for FrodoKEM without restricting how implementations are using FrodoKEM.

John

 

<= b>From: Wang Guilin <Wang.Guilin=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Friday, 23 January 2026 at 10:12
To: Ben S3 <ben.s3=3D40ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org>, Michael Richardson <m= cr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Thom Wiggers <thom@thom= wiggers.nl>, ipsec@ietf.org&nbs= p;<ipsec@ietf.orgWang.Guilin@huawei.com>
Subject: [IPsec] Re: Call for adoption: draft-wang-ipsecme-hybrid-ke= m-ikev2-frodo-03 (Ends 2026-02-09)

ben.s3=3D40ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org<= /u>>
Sent: Friday, 23 January 2026 4:12 pm
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; Thom Wiggers <thom@thomwiggers.nl>; ipsec@ie= tf.org
Subject: [IPsec] Re: Call for adoption: draft-wang-ipsecme-hybrid-kem-ikev2= -frodo-03 (Ends 2026-02-09)

OFFICIAL

Without stating an opinion either way, I=92ll note that the title of this d= raft is consistent with the title of draft-ietf-ipsecme-ikev2-mlkem, which = also assumes hybrid.

Of course, the solution here might be =93change the name of the ML-KEM draf= t too=94.

Ben


OFFICIAL
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
Sent: 22 January 2026 21:07
To: Thom Wiggers <thom@thomwiggers.nl>; ipsec@ie= tf.org
Subject: [IPsec] Re: Call for adoption: draft-wang-ipsecme-hybrid-kem-ikev2= -frodo-03 (Ends 2026-02-09)


Thom Wiggers <thom@thomwiggers.nl> wrote:
    > Title:
    > I do strongly feel that =93hybrid=94 should be remo= ved from the title of
    > the draft, because I think it will lead to confusio= n on what this draft
    > achieves in terms of security. Namely, =93hybrid=94= commonly means PQ/T
    > hybrids, but this draft can be used perfectly fine = with ML-KEM-512 in
    > the IKE_SA_INIT key exchange. While I do agree that= this would still
    > give us a (PQ/PQ) =93hybrid=94, I don=92t think tha= t this matches
    > expectations surrounding the word =93hybrid=94.

I agree strongly.
RFC9370 defines multiple key exchanges, so linking it in that way makes mor= e sense.

    > I don=92t think =93hybrid=94 adds much either, othe= r than (to experts)
    > hinting that this needs to be done in IKE_INTERMEDI= ATE exchanges. So if
    > that is the intended message, I suggest renaming th= e draft to something
    > like =93FrodoKEM for IKE_INTERMEDIATE IKEv2 Key Exc= hanges=94.

Or, maybe "Using FrodoKEM in Multiple IKEv2 Key Exchanges"


--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 I=F8T consulting )
           Sandelman Soft= ware Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide




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