Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt

Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> Thu, 23 February 2017 21:02 UTC

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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2017 08:01:53 +1100
Message-ID: <CAO42Z2xjj6taNSEm7mOuHsEi2-iVN5o-2uiLTM0x1SkyLvh+Hw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt
To: Job Snijders <job@ntt.net>
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Cc: 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, Peter Hessler <phessler@theapt.org>
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What do you know about IPX?

On 24 February 2017 at 07:44, Job Snijders <job@ntt.net>; wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 07:28:26AM +1100, Mark Smith wrote:
>> On 24 Feb. 2017 06:45, "Brian E Carpenter" <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; wrote:
>> On 24/02/2017 03:14, Lorenzo Colitti wrote:
>> > On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 10:40 PM, Peter Hessler <phessler@theapt.org>; wrote:
>> >
>> >> As an implementation, OpenBSD will never add such a crazy thing.  And
>> >> you know that many other implementations won't do so either.
>> >>
>> >> I strongly oppose this draft.
>> >
>> > Bit late to object to that text now I'm afraid.
>>
>> > Nonsense. The exactly correct time to object is when a document is
>> > being Last Called for Internet Standard status. Until this point in
>> > time, IPv6 has only been a Proposed Standard.
>>
>> > Actually it has been very educational for me - not in my
>> > understanding of how IPv6 works, but in showing how badly this
>> > particular aspect has been documented for the last 20 years. Mainly,
>> > we've had too many words in the addressing architecture. I expect
>> > the next version to have fewer words on this topic.
>>
>> I think another issue is that people with an IPv4 only background may
>> expect that IPv6 is just IPv4 with bigger addresses. They then find
>> many other new things, and, as they're not aware that many if not all
>> of these things were used and deployed in other layer 3 protocols such
>> as IPX, CLNS and Appletalk, think there is too much change and too
>> many untested capabilities.
>
> This is called a "straw man argument". You construct this nonsensical
> non-existent "IPv4 only person" and then making ridiculous assertions
> about this "ignorant ipv4 person".
>
> This type of argument is often used in polemical debate, particularly in
> arguments about highly charged emotional issues, where the defeat of
> "ipv4 people" may be more valued than critical thinking or understanding
> both sides of the issue.
>
>> IPv4 was primarily designed and developed in the 1970s. Protocols like
>> XNS/IPX/CLNS and Appletalk were designed and widely deployed in the
>> 1980s and 1990s (e.g., Appletalk v1 in 1985). IPv6 was designed in the
>> mid 1990s, and I think it has taken ideas from all of these ancestor
>> and popular at the time protocols. I think about the only thing that
>> is really new in IPv6 is the idea of using different multicast groups
>> based on portions of the IID for neighbor discovery messages - even
>> then Appletalk uses multicast for that function, however it was just a
>> single group.
>
> Thank you for this lesson in history, but I assure you that many of us
> are intimately familiar with IPv6.
>
>> So perhaps one of the barriers we're pushing up against is the
>> perception that there look to be far to many new things in IPv6 (i.e.,
>> it's not just IPv4 with bigger addresses), even though they're only
>> really new if your reference is just IPv4.
>
> Can you please tone down the fanboyism a bit? Not only are you repeating
> yourself, but in repeating the IPv6 evangelism you are not contributing
> anything of substance to this technical dialogue.
>
> The topic of discussion is not whether IPv6 differs from IPv4 or how it
> differs from IPv6. Strictly speaking IPv4 has _nothing_ to do with this
> discussion.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Job