Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additional security concerns
Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> Fri, 31 July 2020 15:30 UTC
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From: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additional security concerns
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 08:30:29 -0700
In-Reply-To: <91D98D51-4045-4331-A711-8387ECE73400@fugue.com>
Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>, 6man <ipv6@ietf.org>
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <CAFU7BARePzdeU5DFgoOWyrF0xZCj67_xkC2t8vMN2nH0d8aUig@mail.gmail.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> <CAFU7BATiD8RkiWXjrxGuAJU-BUwRQCErYZivUPZ-Mc_up_qGxQ@mail.gmail.com> <aebc46c9b813477b9ae0db0ef33e7bd9@huawei.com> <CAO42Z2yL7+GbO6QRaNzFYoBXLF-JZ2NfwgTTt2zerKhJLwt2Lw@mail.gmail.com> <3C1ECB6F-E667-4200-964F-AB233A0A56E9@cisco.com> <91D98D51-4045-4331-A711-8387ECE73400@fugue.com>
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> On Jul 31, 2020, at 08:13 , Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote: > > On Jul 30, 2020, at 6:26 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:pthubert=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote: >> I support GRAND because it is better than nothing and progressing just that at 6MAN seems to be an incredible achievement already. > > Indeed. GRAND seems like a thing that one would be tempted to add to a stack even in the absence of a draft describing it. Having a draft that describes how to do it is better, because we can then have a discussion of what the benefits and drawbacks are, and mitigate the drawbacks. This concern about ND security seems like a useless digression: yes, ND is not secure, we know this. We’ve tried to address it with SEND, but that hasn’t gotten any traction in the market. > > Are we seeing L2 attacks on ND in the wild? What’s the threat model? If this is a real concern, let’s confront it head-on, rather than trying to address it piecemeal. ND attacks are a concern in a very limited number of scenarios, most of which have not had significant v6 penetration yet… 1. Public wifi networks (e.g. coffee houses, etc.) 2. College/University settings (some v6 traction here, but often not on student-device accessible LANs) 3. Other networks which must admit untrusted clients/devices In reality, ND is not significantly better or worse than ARP in terms of attack surface. The primary difference with ND is the ability to overrun {switch, router, host} neighbor tables. This doesn’t stem from the difference between ND and ARP, but rather from the difference between networks that rarely have more than 256 possible L3 addresses and networks which routinely have more than 18 quintillion possible addresses. There’s just not enough silicon on the planet for every switch to support an n x 2^64 bit neighbor table. Indeed, as an operator, IMHO, if there’s a place we need to focus on improving L2 attack surface in v6, it’s in finding better ways for {routers, hosts, switches} to mitigate/absorb this type of resource exhaustion attack. Unfortunately, this is a hard problem to solve, so we focus on moving the deck chairs we can move while ignoring the elephant-sized hole in the bulkheads that we don’t know how to patch. Owen
- I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additional… Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additi… Jen Linkova
- RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additi… Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additi… Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … joel jaeggli
- RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additi… Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Ted Lemon
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Bob Hinden
- Improving ND security Ted Lemon
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Tony Finch
- draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: Improving ND security Ted Lemon
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Ted Lemon
- RE: Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Bjoern A. Zeeb
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [v6ops] Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Fernando Gont
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Owen DeLong
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Vasilenko Eduard
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Fernando Gont
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Christian Huitema
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Vasilenko Eduard
- RE: [v6ops] Re: Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Fernando Gont
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Michael Richardson
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf… Michael Richardson
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Michael Richardson
- RE: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Vasilenko Eduard
- RE: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Mark Smith
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Vasilenko Eduard
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Vasilenko Eduard
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Vasilenko Eduard
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Jen Linkova
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Bob Hinden
- distributed vs centralized approaches to ND secur… Michael Richardson
- Re: distributed vs centralized approaches to ND s… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Bob Hinden
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Jen Linkova
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Bob Hinden
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Philip Homburg
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand … Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : sa… Ted Lemon
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Ted Lemon
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand … Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : sa… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Warren Kumari
- RE: [EXTERNAL] [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : sa… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [EXTERNAL] [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : sa… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Fred Baker
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Ted Lemon
- RE: [EXTERNAL] [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : sa… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Philip Homburg
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Gyan Mishra
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)